While she wasn't there from the very start, she's still a series mainstay - it's our second heroine, Kirisame Marisa. For an ordinary human, her magic prowess is quite remarkable - her learning ability is nothing but admirable. Do you think she's on the way to becoming a youkai magician? (For some reason, that was my expectation for her when I was only starting out with Touhou.) By the way, she owns and runs a magic shop. A lot of people forget about that, which seems to be true in the series as well... But it has to be more reliable than people give it credit for, surely.
Also, her father makes a direct appearance in Curiosities of Lotus Asia, which is a bit unusual for Touhou. He's just some guy from the human village, apparently. I wonder what happened between him and his daughter. They don't seem to be on very good terms.

Maybe it's because I'm from the west, but I've always had the impression that Marisa was more popular than Reimu among non-touhou fans... or maybe that if someone wanted to throw a touhou reference somewhere that wasn't touhou, Marisa would be picked more often than Reimu. Or maybe Reimu is just a less distinct character design to me and I don't remember her references as much.

I think the magic missiles are a bit out of place in her kit; it doesn't fall into the camp of "lasers" or "space-themed" and I don't remember them having that rainbow coloration that the rest of her magic tends to have.

I'm a bit surprised that there's never been a fanfic or doujin (at least, one that I've come across) that has Marisa as a weird homeless skrunkly that lives in the forest. I think overall, I surprised Marisa tends to be at least somewhat "clean" considering her tendency to get involved in every incident.

Another small thing, I wish her broom got a tiny bit more love. Yeah it's a broom and doesn't need an extensive backstory, but it's an iconic part of her character design and it's the only conceptually magical "vehicle" in touhou (as in, Byakuren's motorcycle is probably magical, but a motorcycle as a vehicle isn't inherently magical).

Yay, Marisa week! We've been blue balled for long enough. Anyway I really like Marisa being the hard working and not as talented one in comparison to Reimu, that and her underdog status make her a bit of a natural protagonist in my eyes.
I also quite like scientific Marisa's, even if she doesn't know what radiation is and has to be taught about dangerous science-y things in canon, I like to imagine a lot of her 'magic' is more tech-y. Although I don't think that's an uncommon preference just going by what I've seen.
>>19537

>Youkai magician
Honestly I like it, but it's also a bit trite. Too common and I've seen it too many times. There is one specific example i like, in the Doujin Bonfire Flower, where Marisa outlives Reimu, and stays around to help the next Hakurei while visiting the shrine every year to pay tribute to Reimu. It also plays into my preference for the hakurei to not be bloodline based and be very disposable.
Although I've had an idea for a comedy where Marisa is close to becoming a Youkai but there are so many safety rails around her she ends up juggling between people instead, with everyone hiding this from Reimu since they don't want to distress her.
Although I also like the opposite idea, Reimu becomes more inhuman, ageless, and absorbed into the role of Hakurei in ways her predecessors weren't, with Marisa wanting to become a youkai to stay with her. Which leads the two to conflict as Reimu is torn between her duty and friendship

>Shop
I like to think her shop is less of a general store, and more of an all purpose mercenary business, with Marisa taking odd jobs to make money. Sort of like in the doujin Dancers of the Boundary.

>Maridad
Anyways I've posted more or less my version of Marisa's back story here >>/others/70629, even if it is a short and shallow retread of two other things I like. In general I really like the idea of Marisa having a dead mother, and in specific I really like the idea of her father being very abusive. Which is funny since the one time I've alluded to their relationship in a proper fic, it was mutual misunderstanding and Marisa not wanting to be a burden.
Anyways, people really underestimate how cruel a parent can be to their child, and although I never explained the reason why Marisa was abused in the scrap I'll do it here: She's a natural Albino, and there's a lot of superstition around that. Sort of like how disfigured or unwanted children would be called the children of youkai, changlings, oni, demons...etc and cast off into the wilderness, Marisa's red eyes and white hair, even if it's just a genetic anomaly, mark her as a half-youkai to her father. But she's still the daughter of her mother, so she wasn't killed as a baby. And the reason why her eyes and hair become golden blonde is the same reason in canon, the forest of magic ended up dying it.

>>19540
I've also headcanoned Dead Mom for Marisa and known I've read like 2 different things that also had that. Is that common?

>>19541
Probably, we never hear about her, in TOUHOU of all series and get her dad instead.

>>19539
>First post is a flith lover complaning about Clean'risa

>>19539
I think the reason she’s depicted as clean is that dirt stains, scrapes, missing teeth, and broken limbs detract from the cute factor.

Yeah! The broom should have a name! I read a doujin where (I thought, but it turns out I made this up) Yuuka called her parasol Mr. Umbrella, so I’m gonna headcanon that she calls it Mr. Rocket. Or something like that. It needs to be a fast, cool, masculine name.

>>19540
I really like Bonfire Flower, too! And I agree with just about everything you said except for the disposable part specifically. I feel like if Youkai Marisa and Goddess Marisa fought, Yukari would interrupt and be like, “What human? All I see is a youkai who’s been here for years.”

I’ve always thought Marisa calls her home a shop just because that’s what she’s used to, and she doesn’t actually sell anything. Until someone asks her to make something. I also imagine her house as full as a hoarder’s, but she actually uses the things in her home. At least once a year.

I do “dead mother who practiced magic, but magic got her killed, so he hid the books to protect his daughter from magic, but he couldn’t let them go because they remind him of his late wife, but then Marisa found them and fell in love with magic, so he shouts at her, and then etc.”

I can get behind the ambient magic of the forest changing her features, but I actually prefer the idea that her mother’s side was European, specifically Circassian, who then (somehow) ended up in Japan.

>>9544
>Goddess Marisa
>Goddess Reimu
I see I see, although honestly I've seen enough casually cruel and Okina-esq Yukari's I wouldn't question it if she said. "Let them fight," or comment to Ran how amusing it'll be. Although I was imaging Reimu as something closer to Okuu, a living shrine, not a goddess. Sort of automaton like, human only because the fact that "The Hakurei Shrine Maiden is a Human," is a law she take as axiomatic, so no matter how inhuman Reimu is, due to the fact she is the Hakurei, she is a human by definition.
And I'll be the first to admit that a disposable works better alongside a Marisa who has a family to fall back on and is less abusive. Although I have preferences for them individually I feel like Reimu and Marisa work best with contrast. If Reimu is something who can't help but be the Hakurei. If the Hakurei is disposable and all the shrine maidens past and future are forgotten the moment they pass, losing their usefulness to Gensokyo and becoming the history people trod upon, then Marisa should be someone who carves a legacy into the earth. If Reimu is critical, then Marisa is replaceable...etc

>dead mother who practiced magic
The version of this I like the most is from the Doujin "When you Wish Upon a Star," where Marisa's mother encouraged her love of magic when she was younger but as Marisa grew up she relented, wanting Marisa to not play magician anymore so she can be accepted by society easier. Of course the little kid Marisa didn't understand that and tried to curse her mother, it probably didn't work, but either way her mother died soon after and Marisa never forgave herself. Of course her father was unaware of the second part, and Marisa never told him, but she decided to run away.

>White mother
Well if we're throwing around mom candidates we may as well go ham, Okina, Alice, Ran, Luna(? It would explain Marisa's stature), any blonde in touhou really! There are so many blondes!

Good old Marisa. Or as I like to call her: The Vegeta of Touhou.

She's a character I've always liked. Compared to Reimu, or even most Touhou characters, she's actually likeable and arguably more morale. Even if her choice of friends do call into question if she's actually a good person or not. At least she seems to genuinly personally care about the human villagers.

People already brought up her mom and the main thing I'll say for that is that I always liked the idea of her mother being a outsider who stayed in Gensokyo. Her dying from a disease that probably would have been prevented in the outside world (Remember: This was pre Eirin Gensokyo) would explain a lot of her dad's behavior. In general I tend to dislike interpretations of her dad being abusive. I prefer him being stern and traditional, but mostly because he genuinly believes it's best for his daughter. It would make a neat point of comparison for her other major parental figure, Mima. Who is largely self interested when it comes to Marisa but is also far more free and open about her feelings.

One idea I kind of like is Marisa being very popular in the human village. In Perfect Memento it was basically mentioned that magicians are actually very common in the human village, something largely contradicted by every canon work since then. I tend to square the circle by making most human village magicians effectively just Marisa fanclubs. On that same, and even more headcanon, note I also tend to imagine Marisa is pretty deeply involved with various merchant clans due to her upbringing. Though she's reluctant to do much with them, since she largely views them as stuffy and boring.

>>19546
This is of course personal bias, but I've never really liked moral interpretations of Marisa where she's some sort of do-gooder, she's a thief and a burglar and I think Marisa as a drug dealer is nice as well. Although you seldom see the latter. Same thing with her being a celebrity, Magicians and real magic is something the human villagers should be scared of, and Marisa should be ostracized because of it.
That's not to say Marisa should dislike the villagers, but I prefer when the like is one-sided, Marisa liking them but them not liking her. Whether that be justified or not, after all some drug dealers like to think of themselves as the friends of their clients.
Although I can see how you like popular Mairsa. If Reimu doesn't care about the villagers and they hate her, Marisa should care about them and they should love her. Sort of reminds me of RAINMAKER, where Reimu tries to overturn Gensokyo for her own sake. If Marisa has a connection to the outsider world and cares about them, Reimu shouldn't.
Very inhumane Reimu's who are only human by definition, and very human Marisa's who walk the line of inhumanity can be funpairs. Although maybe that doesn't fit as well with a popular unpopular dynamic.

I agree about the Maridad thing, Marisa having these two contrasting parental figures in her life, one of which takes the spot of her mother is cool, and then you have Kourin too passive to push her to either influence. Although I don't know how Marisa's mother dying of a disease the outside world could cure translates into him having a dislike for magic.

Have a Mari-idol

Actually, there's someone we're forgetting.
That's right! Remember the weapon Yumemi gifted to Marisa upon defeat? I wonder where she is now, that little missile! Surely someone like Marisa wouldn't let a whole (miniature) ICBM go to waste. Kyu~n.

Worth a mention, lol. Not a subject change, naturally, just an invitation to consider Mimi-chan, among other things.

Maybe the magic missiles were inspired by Mimi, who knows?

Since nobody's talking about her music, I really love Dance of witches. Very witchy music. I like Love-colored master spark from IN as well, at least partially because of the title.

>>19547
This just gave the idea that maybe Mima just raised Marisa to think stealing and beating people up were "good" a la mega mind. She knows they're wrong now, but it still feels pretty good to pick on people that are weaker than her, so why not?

I don't really care too much about Marisa's parents, so I'll talk about Rinnosuke instead. I personally don't ship him with Marisa because age stuffs, yadda yadda. You can definitely write them to be closer in terms of mental age, but I'd say the average depiction of Rinnosuke is at least one age group older than the average depiction of Marisa, and I just can't bridge that gap. I think he's alright as an uncle/father figure to Marisa, but I think I just prefer the rest of Touhou's pretty spirited cast to "guy that runs a shop".

>>19536
Where do you even start with Marisa? There's just too much. She's cool, she's cute, she's silly, she's smart, she's an ordinary human magician, she's the face of the franchise. Marisa is the most infectiously fun character in Touhou. She goes all out in everything she does and has a blast at it, and the audience vicariously enjoys Gensokyo through her.

She seems to get along well with everyone (except her dad), to the point where she's been nicknamed "Marizza". She even gets along with fairies and seems to take them somewhat seriously, when most humans treat them as pests. Her interactions with fairies give her "cool older sister" side time to shine. Gensokyo's other magicians are a prickly bunch, but they seem to take to her with good humor. Patchy calls her a "rat" but we know she doesn't really mean that. She's being tsundere.

It's hard to talk about Marisa without talking about Reimu. The two are set as a contrasting pair - Reimu's innate power vs. Marisa's hard work, and Reimu's defined social role vs. Marisa estranging herself from her family to live on the fringes. Reimu was born to be the Hakurei Shrine maiden, and resolving incidents is her sacred duty. Marisa was born to run a shop in the village, but decided to run off and learn magic instead, and resolves incidents as a hobby. They complement each other well when they interact in the manga. They fit so well together, they basically feel like a canon ship.

Marisa's an occasional thief and outrageous liar, but she doesn't do it in a malicious way. She's just having fun. She wouldn't take something from someone who would suffer from the loss, and her lies aren't meant to be believed anyway. She's irresponsible maybe, but not bad. Chaotic Good, you might call her.

When she gets serious, she's very cool too. She can throw herself into something and work very hard, like when she went to hunt weasels to protect the village from lightning, or when she studied the secret of the Ibuki Gourd. And sometimes she chides Reimu for not taking an incident seriously enough, like in UDOALG. You wonder if she maybe envies Reimu's effortless strength a little in those moments.

Marisa is a very versatile character to write. She's mischievous and could start trouble, but she's also responsible and could resolve it. She's strong and brave and can be a hero, but she's also vulnerable and can get in over her head because she's just an ordinary human, and so she can be a damsel in distress. She knows enough about Gensokyo and magic to provide exposition, but her knowledge is incomplete so she can receive it too. She's a perfect switch. Her curiosity and love of collecting rarities give her a hook to get involved in almost anything going on in Gensokyo, and if you need a plot device her research and collection can easily produce one. She's got ready-made angst plotlines with her potential youkai transformation and failing that the lifespan mismatch with the other magicians, but she's such a bundle of joy that she excels in light and silly stories too. She's so great in so many different roles it almost seems a mistake to write a story without her in it.

Her recent gameplay has been a little sad. Her Master Spark has been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed again, almost like ZUN is trying to make the point that Reimu is the stronger of the two. At least she got to be the solo star of her own game a few years back.

When it comes to Marisa fanworks, Boundary Dancers was mentioned upthread, and that's a fun one. Passion for Your Sake is the most brutal work of Touhou angst I've ever read. The Magician is Ordinary is a somewhat more positive take on some of the same angsty concepts. But more than being the focus, she's great as a secondary character in lots of works. Any work would be brightened up with a little Marisa in it. Are you planning to write fanfic? Consider giving Marisa a role!

>>19547
I'll freely admit I'm biased in favor of Marisa. Sure, she steals. But she steals from Youkai, and they can go to hell as far as I care. I don't think they deserve to be alive, I'm sure as hell not going to respect their right to property. She's never shown stealing from human villagers. Which arguably makes her more morale than Reimu.

>Magicians and real magic is something the human villagers should be scared of
I don't really get that logic. Even ignoring they really shouldn't based on what was established about magicians in PMISS. Omnoyi are a ancient Japanese tradition that should be extremely common in the human village and most villagers(People descended from literal monsters slayers) should be all over that. Furthermore, even if we assume most human villagers(Or at least the ruling elite) would have a issue with Marisa then that wouldn't change that she would be extremely popular with teenagers and other more rebellious outcast.

Of course all of this is depended on the human village being written like a actual place with a society that responds to the circumstances they find themselves in and the actual cultural traditions they draw from. Something neither canon Touhou or 99,9% of fanwork does.

>Very inhumane Reimu's who are only human by definition, and very human Marisa's who walk the line of inhumanity can be funpairs.
I would say it's less that Reimu is inhumane as much as she's too privilliged and largely detached from other people. She's a noble queen granted insane power and privilege by the nature of her birth, Marisa is a common peasant girl (Or at least middle class) who rose to power through her own effort. Besides, the one saving grace I will give Reimu is that she's genuinly too stupid to realize just how much suffering she's causing.

>Although I don't know how Marisa's mother dying of a disease the outside world could cure translates into him having a dislike for magic.
Basically: If Gensokyo did not exist and they both lived in the outside world, Marisa's mother would still be alive. So, he loathes Gensokyo and the magic it keeps around. Wanting his daughter to have a happy normal life away from all of that.

>>19550
I tend to assume that Mima didn't really raise Marisa to believe that stealing and beating up people is good as much as she just raised her with the mentality that only power matters. Morality is meaningless, do what you have to do to survive and prosper.

>>19550
I don't really see Mima as someone who 'raised' Marisa, taught her, yes. Even then Rinnosuke making the Mini-hakkero in the first place and giving it to Marisa was probably more impactful. Mima was just a teacher to Marisa who she idolized. But I am quite fond of Rinnosuke myself because he is just a guy, and a half-youkai as well, not exactly foreign to the village, not exactly welcomed with open arms. With Yukari frequenting his shop and how easy it is to give him a connection to other characters like Keine, or anyone who would need to buy things, I feel like he's an easy character to use as well. Even if I agree I don't exactly get the ship with him and Marisa.
>>19552
Nice to hear from you Milo. I don't really care to talk about how spoiled you think Reimu is and how much you want youkai genocide again (at least outside of the Irregular thread) and my above reply also addresses some of what you said, but on the topic of Omnoyi: I really like the depiction of the village Magicians in FS, where they're charlatans and actual magic, which can risk you turning into a youkai, is something that is feared since crossing the boundary of human and youkai is the ultimate sin in Gensokyo.
Honestly I really like the villagers being discriminatory and superstitious, I think it fits the circumstances pretty well. And Marisa's treatment, either being an exception to that rule or the subject of persecution is really appealing to me.
>So, he loathes Gensokyo and the magic it keeps around. Wanting his daughter to have a happy normal life away from all of that.
Oh, that's a pretty interesting angel, I can see that. As well as him wanting to protect his daughter from youkai. Although I question how much a human villager would know of the outside world, maybe Rinosuke planted some ideas in his head and ended up causing problems inadvertently?

Of course all of that is biased from FS being my favorite official Touhou manga.

On Mima, honestly I don't like the idea of Mima raising Marisa, although I have other thoughts about Mima, Mizuchi, Renko, and Marisa. It's a pretty silly headcanon but I like cycles of fate, every generation there's someone with a barrier power, Maribel, the previous Hakurei, Reimu and they always have a closest friend. Renko, Mizuchi, Mima in there somewhere, and Marisa.
In the end, despite everything, they always end up in conflict. Renko is ideologically opposed to Maribel. Mizuchi loves humanity and hypocritically embraces youkai-dom. Mima hates humanity and the outside world, wanting to overthrow it with Youkai. And eventually Marisa's towing of the line between human and youkai will drag her and her best friend Reimu into conflict.
Or maybe they can avoid that fate.

>>19551
Honestly I tend to forget about her relationship with the fairies, but yeah, it's pretty cute.

>>19554
>I really like the depiction of the village Magicians in FS
I much prefer PMISS, where they are around and genuinly mostly treated as weirdoes that are sometimes dangerous or annoying. But to each their own.

>Honestly I really like the villagers being discriminatory and superstitious,
Again, to each their own. My big issue is mostly that it just doesn't make a lick of sense. We know they are a society of youkai exterminators, at least once upon a time. To go from people who most likely saw Abe No Seimei as a hero to people who somehow think all magic is bad because the Youkai they hate think it's bad in about a hundred years is ridiclous unless you assume the Youkai brainwashed the entire population.

>I think it fits the circumstances pretty well.
Like I said, to each their own but it it completely ignores everything we know about them. As well as their actual characterization as generally saint like people. It also just straight up ignores human behavior, but what can you do about that.

>Although I question how much a human villager would know of the outside world,
I... I don't want to be too mean, but have you read any of the print works outside of FS?

From PMISS outsider article:
>However, there are also rare cases where outsiders settle into Gensokyo.
>Such outsiders are treasured, since they hold unique knowledge.
>Lately, a sport called "soccer" has become popular. In this manner, Gensokyo is halfway infected with the outside world.

From Symposium Sanaea article:
>However, examples of humans like her who come in to Gensokyo by their own will and settle down here are rare. Moreover, she is a preciously rare human being that is adjusting to Gensokyo
>Unfortunately, she lacks in knowledge about the outside world(*3). No one has been able to learn about any newer technology or gain any new information about the outside world from her.

Now, you could argue basically all of this has been contradicted by FS. I would even agree to some extent, which is one of the many issues I have with FS. With that said though I don't see much if any indication that their attitude towards outsiders has shifted within FS.

>>19555
>No one has been able to learn about any newer technology or gain any new information about the outside world from her.

>>19556
>New information
>Aka: They have information.
Basically: They can't get anything new from her because she can't tell them anything they don't already know. Which implies their average knowledge is already pretty high.

I should also add to my previous post that if you WANT to ignore what earlier print works said about the human villagers to make them more ignorantl that is totally okay. Not trying to stop you from having a different view on Gensokyo compared to canon in fan works or even just preferring something else, just pointing out that in canon they know plenty.

>>19557
Canon is only ever a suggestion

>>19558
Even ZUN seems to think so, unfortunately.

A shame 99,9% of fanon is trash, but oh well.

>>19544
Why do you think her mother is Russian and Caucasian of all things??? Thank all gods she's not Chechen at least

>>19547
What is a "moral" interpretation? This western black-and-white worldview is inherently dysfunctional, of course, yet it's hardly ever more obvious than in attempts to aplly it to Touhou.

>>19546
>her other major parental figure, Mima
Existence of Mima is fundamentally at odds with the whole character of Marisa. In fact, Windows Marisa and PC-98 Marisa are really two separate characters sharing the same name (not even design really).

>>19549
The epitome of moe farce and therefore all that I dislike in PC-98. I just pretend it never existed.

>>19552
The same problem as above: the westerner black-and-white moralizing worldview. This already was an issue in the Reimu discussion, it could have been more interesting without this approach.
Anyway, thievery is really the old games thing, mostly from EoSD and steadily receding afterwards, but because old windows games disproportionately affected fanon, here we are, sadly. Marisa ceased to be this liar-for-no-reason after those older games as well.

>>19557
Or Sanae just doesn't know anything useful to them, just like absolute majority of modern people.

Go on, come at me. My ability to elaborate, build argumentation and write long posts worsens by the day, but at least in arguments I can squeeze out of myself something, the more heated, the better.

>>19565
>What is a "moral" interpretation?
NTA, but I personally think the moral interpretation is one where she's still a good person at heart. Sure, she steals and does crimes. But most of her victims deserve it and she does it mostly to survive and because she thinks the human villagers do need somebody looking out for them.

>Existence of Mima is fundamentally at odds with the whole character of Marisa.
Again, NTA, but she fills a lot of the missing hole we have in her backstory. The main argument you could make is that it takes away from her being self made.

>This already was an issue in the Reimu discussion, it could have been more interesting without this approach.
I'm fine with not bringing up a moralizing but then I also just don't think there is much to discuss when it comes to Marisa (Or any part of Touhou, for that matter). It's just not that deep.

>Or Sanae just doesn't know anything useful to them, just like absolute majority of modern people.
Define something useful. Because the history of Japan would be plenty of intrest to rich bored people.

>19565
Considering you're complaining about westerners I'll assume you're Matvprok, anyways:
>What is a "moral" interpretation?
I specified do-gooder, Marisa has to have a little edge to her. Like come on, a Marisa who's nice, popular with the villagers, only steals from people who deserves it, and has minimal conflicts with her family is boring. I like Marisa with a bit more of a mercenary edge to her, making her some sort of superhero just doesn't feel very Marisa to me.
It just comes down to the vibes I like from the character, I mean I say that but I also like Redo/Reimu's Marisa and she isn't very edgy. But at least there she's a pretty flawed kid who makes mistakes, that and she's really funny. Honestly all my preferences can have an asterisk next to them reading,"unless it's funny." I think Milo's Reimu and Yukari could be pretty for one thing, but he always bring them up in these as you say:
> the westerner black-and-white moralizing worldview
Type arguments. Of course I'm also a hypocrite here as I don't imagine Marisa would steal from the human village, I see her as someone who knows and pushes the limits, but is too canny to ever fully cross them. Of course if I wanted some sort of dramatic conflict I could still have her cross them by accident or resolve to jump over the metaphorical fence.
But yeah I really like Marisa as a teller of tall tales, Sanae does it too when lying to Suwako and kanako in LoLK, why can't Marisa? I'm also not a fan of her prominent ships, I like to see her relationships with Patchy and Alice as friendly but somewhat strained. Mostly due to them being annoyed by and putting the Marisa who acts without thinking of if her acts will cause their opinion of her to raise or lessen.
Something similar with Byakuren but Byakuren is more willing to go out of her way in order to help Marisa, which usually ends up encouraging. Also since I imagine Byakuren's physical reinforcement magic also involves biology, she'd be the one who nag Marisa about taking better care of her health. (Alongside Kasen of course.) Also I imagine of the four other witches these are the most likely to cooperate just because Byakuren goes out of her way for Marisa and is interested in research, something the staff of the Myouren temple can't help her too much with.
While Narumi is the most frequent house guest of Marisa, living in the Forest of Magic helping her out, and keeping tabs on her. Partly due to Okina's orders since the Sage wants to keep eyes on Marisa at all times. Partly because Narumi is the most worried about Marisa turning into a youkai, something she'd talked to Byakuren about.

Oh yes, Okina. I imagine that she's being truthful when she says she admires Marisa's wisdom and boldness. She'd really love to have Marisa take over Mai and Sotono's place, at the same time she won't force the issue. Of course Okina is a crafty and wicked secret god, so her version of respect is.
>If you start to become a youkai I'll strike and force your hand, replace Mai and Sotono so then we can spare Reimu having to put you down as the Jinyou you're becoming.
Maybe Okina is even reminded a bit of her past self, either way Marisa doesn't know what to make of Okina and the goddesses mixture of care and wickedness.
Oh yeah and since I like to think Marisa's hair is dyed by magic Okina tries and fails to use that as a bonding experince for the two of them

>Or Sanae just doesn't know anything useful to them, just like the absolute majority of modern people.
ftfy
Nah, I kind of resent Sanae for being boring. Something monstrous like not valuing the lives of humans as anything more than resources is much cooler to me. Anyway my preference for Sanae is more of the irregular thread's speed. It's Mari-weeks after all (two whole weeks of Mairsa)
Of course that's in a vaccum, unlike certain other pasts or characterization I've talked about I don't have a story in mind for this Sanae.

>>19565
>>19567
Oops, also I forgot to say. I really like the silly but mentall unstable Marisa from the dounjin, "The Magician is Ordinary " it always feels like she's about to cry or do something dangerous but she never does.
That and despite my distaste for Mima, I really like the predatory one from "Kirisame Reincarnation", where she's like a curse, even after Marisa lives the rest of her life attoning for the sin she committed, Mima will return and lead her daughter on the same faulty path of becoming a Magcician.

>>19565
>Windows Marisa and PC-98 Marisa are really two separate characters sharing the same name (not even design really).
Not really... Not at all... No... I dunno, I get that the way she behaves seems contradictory, but outright calling them separate characters is odd to me. Though, really, retcons and separating things that happen within a franchise into "canon" and "non-canon" are very odd to me in general, whether they're done by creators officially or by fans of their own accord. I've never been able to take that kind of thing very seriously at all. Things that seem contradictory coexist all the time - and since it's Touhou we're talking about, it seems to be the spirit of Gensokyo to be illusionary and only halfway tangible, so... <- but I don't know much about the new games and lore
Though I don't actually think it's some kind of personality change she underwent "in-universe". I understand that Marisa just wasn't written very distinctly from anyone else in the old games, but I've always taken it in a similar way to medium restrictions or artistic abstractions - it's just that this quality of the writing isn't intentional. Like, erm, how do I put it... Reimu didn't literally change hair colours, yanno? It's just going from drawing black as purple to drawing black as black, which are both just different ways of portraying the same thing. I've always taken Marisa's personality change this way. ZUN just started giving her more thought...

>Anyway, thievery is really the old games thing, mostly from EoSD and steadily receding afterwards, but because old windows games disproportionately affected fanon, here we are, sadly. Marisa ceased to be this liar-for-no-reason after those older games as well.
Kind of a disappointment IMO... I don't actually like Marisa at all, because the fan jokes about her are annoying as hell (yes, enough to turn me off completely) and because her character design is too generic and kind of saccharine (I care about that, okay?), but her being a kind of roguish rascal as well as a self-taught scholar does give her a fair bit of charm. She becomes a sort of picaresque protagonist this way, right? I like a good picaresque novel. It's rare to see girls in that role, too, so she's even more charming this way!

Okay, lastly,
>The epitome of moe farce and therefore all that I dislike in PC-98. I just pretend it never existed.
You kind of hate fun things I'm afraid. I'm afraid you're not invited to my birthday party anymore. My Mimi-chan-themed birthday party. Pic extremely related.

>>19565
My image inspired the headcanon, then I discovered that the Circassians were genocided and fled from the area, which solidified it.

>>19549
Omigosh, how did we forget about Mimi-chan?! Actually, there's not much to say about her, huh? But she's cute, so it's okay.

i've already forgotten if marisa changes her as hair as much as she changes clothes in lotus eaters but i did notice her consistently wearing twintails whenever she's at home researching. cute. that's all i can contribute tbh. i guess it's not surprising if someone finds her to be more interesting to read or work with, though reimu is still endearing for being....reimu. there is a dearth of cute おねショタ doujinshi with marisa, i will say. or, at least, no definitive work by one of the usual suspects. surprisingly. even miyoi got one.

>>19540
>my version of Marisa's back story
oh, that was you? i liked it!
>>19579
>beerisa
she did take up beekeeping that one time. add that to the list in alternative facts (which includes plumbing). i would enjoy more of the risa going about her mundane jobs.

>>19580
I think Marisa is more of a little sister type, she even has Rinnosuke as surrogate a big brother, so that's why you see less Onee/Shota doujins with her in it. Although I do think she's sufficiently a bad influence, I wouldn't be surprised if she does drugs.
Besides she's really fucking short.
But thank you I guess, the idea came for when I was writing for the Halloween Holiday Exhibition, but it ended up not having a strong connection to the theme. Either way I wished I remembered to use site formatting instead of html like I usual do, and I think the prompt I gave myself was.
>Either at the end of Akyuu's life or near the beginning of Aju's life she begins to compile information of important peoples during Reimu's tenure as the Hakurei Shrine Maiden.
From there various things started falling into place, starting with it being about Marisa and ending with Keine being Mr. Kirisame's teacher.

But yeah I'd love to see more of Marisa doing odd jobs or being a handyman, maybe even running a dating service out of the Kirisame Magic Shop? (aka Mima's house)

The mention of Oneeshota reminded me of Starving Marisa's Blessed Meal: where am adorable little sister Marisa sets out to mooch off of her friends during winter without the help of her big sister Alice.

>>19565

>Windows Marisa and PC-98 Marisa are really two separate characters sharing the same name (not even design really).

I would strong disagree, especially considering how several part of her character are still there not just from Pc98, but TH2

-her focus on training? she goes to help Reimu (somewhat badly) for most of the bad endings

>Training time is FUN time!"
and TH5 her bad end has her grab reimu again for training.

-her habit of just walking up to befriend someone? again, right there in the bad endings of TH2, just out of nowhere walking up to the person she was fighting with and deciding to help her out.

her informal, if not casual way of talking to people? still there from the beginning there's still only one exception to that even if she's disappeared.

-while she has gained a focus on lasers instead, she still uses star danmaku like she did back in pc98 is still a part of her repertoire.

I mean the fact that she obviously wasn't a human of the village is consistent to her portrayal from the pc98 games, even if there wasn't yet a village at the time for her not to be a part of.

----

on that note some of her action from PC98 seem to have stuck around too, said training with Reimu (especially the ones from the first time around if you see the pictures!) probably didn't help Reimu's training habits at all. XD

>>19581

>Besides she's really fucking short.

I've joked and just straight up commented on this a few times, and I'm wondering if it has a more serious reason behind it.

we know she ran away from the human village into the forest of magic when she was rather young... a forest of which most people's starting goal was a spell that eliminates the need for food... so how many of them would care about food, much less nutrition? even when she finally got a teacher... who was dead and thus even if she had needed food as a magician in life, she'd probably long forgotten that need after becoming a vengeful spirit!

Marisa probably got through it thanks to Rinnosuke and whatever she could swipe from various magician's tea parties and the like.. but still left a mark...

have more, but got to get to sleep for a stinking really early morning shift, hopefully the start of the next one isn't too soon, was sick when this start and only really now getting to it!

We've got all the heroines out of the way now! I think. And the next character will be...

[X] Morichika Rinnosuke
[X] Moriya Suwako
[X] Chen

[X] Moriya Suwako
Suwawaeaeaea

[X] Morichika Rinnosuke

All these silly girls and their frilly outfits! Wait, the frill have went out of fashion, uh... All these silly girls and their lack of shoes! We need a real man to sort things out, set the record straight, rein in all these dillydalliers! Yup!

>>19587

[X] Moriya Suwako

[X] Moriya Suwako

THE AGE OF MAN IS OVER!

THE AGE OF THE FROG HAS BEGUN!

[X] Moriya Suwako

Moriya Suwako is an ancient indigenous god, creator of kun-earth, one of the Yaoyorozu no Kami. Very much a Nagano deity, she even controls mishaguji. There's a lot to her, both in terms of Touhou story lore and real-life inspiration. It's almost surprising how little frogs come up! Let's treat this as an opportunity to do some reading on regional shinto traditions, hm?

>>19599
I think Suwako is a pretty decent 2hu, although in my mind I only have one Suwako. Although i understand where the really cute, dramatic curse god, and old lady versions of her come from in my mind Suwako is someone passively suicidal. She doesn't want to live anymore, but she has a duty to guide her descendants, and she supposes Kanako is a friend; so she's decided to stick around for longer. After all from her point of view gods exist to answer prayers. If the humans stop giving her prayers and they think they no longer need her, and deny the fact she exists, she doesn't have a reason to stay around. It's only because of the aforementioned kanako and Sanae did this belief result in her departing to Gensokyo instead of withering away and dying.
It also ties into my beliefs about Curse Gods being a sort of Native God and why they have such a large overlap with Harvest Gods as well. Nature itself isn't naturally cursed, but humans bring curses into the land and so pray that these curses will afflict their enemies, or at least spare them. Like if you pressed against Suwako's skin hard enough it's break like clay and reveal a bottomless well of curses beneath.
Naturally then since food is so important it becomes a focal point of this prayer, so gods like Suwako come into existence. Since she was kind to humans, and these humans were pestered by curse gods in the form of the Mishaguji, when she tamed them, being a curse reciprocal curses became a part of her duties/function. That is to say I like the idea of her becoming a curse god due to her being kind to humans, allowing them to avoid the wrath of the curse gods they invoked.
That's how I see the birth of Suwako being, and since the curses within her have grown so large to be without number they'll spill out into Suwa upon her death. Even then, to her that's only natural. The humans put off suffering for a later date, so when she dies it'll spill out into the world like it's supposed to.
I think that's a bit fearsome and godly actually, a strong belief in the course of nature, so strong it overpowers any beliefs, morals, or will she has. After all her source comes from nature, so from her point of view there's nothing wrong with nature taking its course. Either way she doesn't have any strong feelings about it.
If you're wise you should respect nature, but being unwise is also the course of nature. So no matter what happens, she can sit back and say it's fine as long as the people she cares about are okay. Due to that belief she actually doesn't have much pride and is very hard to offend, at the same time she'll curse you even if she isn't offended by disrespect.
After all, it's only natural.

Although I know in reality she's just sort of a shit in, with her even being pretty competitive and being able to lose gracefully. That and of course she'd get angry if you disrespected nature.
Also it's a bit odd her ability is related to (坤) Earthliness given that it's referencing the Taoist trigams. Or maybe it's jut a descriptor(?)

Also I like to imagine she had a taller form back in the day but after she threw away her pride she took on the short froggy form she's known for.

>>19600
I wouldn't call that suicidal. She's old, I'm pretty sure it's said or at least implied that she was ancient by the time of her struggle with Kanako, and doesn't mind dying. Everybody she loved, divine or human, is long dead and the world in front of her is so fundamentally different to the one she was born into she might as well be on Mars. Otherwise I mostly agree, though I do still think she can be pretty prideful.

>Also I like to imagine she had a taller form back in the day but after she threw away her pride she took on the short froggy form she's known for.
I have a theory that it's because she was originally a fairy and her general situation caused her to look more like how she was as a fairy. Either way, she is the loli Touhou that canonically had sex and that alone will never be forgotten unless we get hard confirmation she was a hot milf when she gave birth to Sanea's ancestor.

>>19601
Fairy's are basically gods already so it wouldn't surprise me, they just don't have a source of faith. Although it changes the backstory for Suwako I have in my mind to reflect even worse on the humans involved in it. Their actions are still more or less the same, but since fairy's are basically children it changes the tone of some of their and Suwako's actions.
Suwako, not being born from their prayers means she helped through idle kindness, curiosity, or friendship with humans. Then she ends up going on an adventure like Cirno did during HSiFS or PoFV, but she doesn't have an Aya or Okina who cares about her, only humans who don't fully understand what they're doing and want Suwako's help dealing with the Mishaguji. Either way there's an element of unintentional cruelty, they just wanted help, the thought of what would happen to Suwako only crossed their minds after the fact.
>Either way, she is the loli Touhou that canonically had sex and that alone will never be forgotten unless we get hard confirmation she was a hot milf when she gave birth to Sanea's ancestor.
I didn't even think of that, I was thinking more along the lines of Suwako pretending to be a frog youkai badly. Besides she has multiple other frog-like bodies mentioned but never seen.
I think it's cute.

Suwaauuauwuauauauuuuu….. I am a big fan of the frog. Very big.

A lot of that is just plain because I find her attractive. Blonde, long tongue, petite, creepy-cute. Have you seen how she fights in Hisoutensoku, constantly squatting and doing frog hops? Can you imagine how toned her legs must be if thats her default fighting style? Moriyea cowgirl… imagin… Anyway my ideal Wako is very froggy, y’know, croaking, rectangular pupils (though snake slit pupils are also good and can be a nice contrast to other froggy features)… Webbed feet… Frog eggs… imagen she does her whole curse god schtick and is all creepy and shit but then u just pick her bend her over rock and start fuckin her ough...

I also think, for an older character, there’s a lot of story and plot ideas that are basically untapped. Involved with the Kappa with Hisoutensoku, in LoLK’s bad end she comes back with the results for the ultramarine orb elixir, in SoPM she explains the nuclear reactor of Former Hell to Aya and it can be implied that she was also involved with setting that up (One of the Moriya gods had to have gotten down to former hell to deliver the piece of Yatagarasu to Ustuho and also tell her to eat it, and Suwako’s been shown to be able to tunnel through the ground, so it’d make sense she was the one who was able to set up the events of SA!). So, it can be implied she’s involved with some very skilled scientists (Kappa… and perhaps human!?). Maybe she has some scientific skill of her own too? She has technical skill at least, she helped build Myouren temple after all…

Anyway, all that to support a headcanon: I think Suwako acts for the shrine in a clandestinely. I know in some of her profiles it says she doesn’t leave the shrine very often but thats y’know. Its all lies. It’d be a good cover for wetwork, wouldn’t it? Thats what it is.

She could politick with Satori, the Kappa, Tengu, and other big shots, and she could come into conflict with Tsukasa, who also does clandestine / subterfuge activities and is actively trying to guile Sanae in the recent games.

>>19600

Ennui Suwako is good, I think. I just don't like it when its to the point of her not doing anything at all. She's motivated to further the interest of the shrine by virtue of that helping Kanako and Suwako, but she doesn't have any sort of appetite or ambition beyond that.

>>19601
>>19602

I can see where this fairy origin angle comes from, but I think they wouldn't exactly be 'fairies' per se. Like, fairies are forces of nature given form, but they look like that because of belief, right? So some shit must have happened such that modern Gensokyo (and Hell's) idea for what these primal spirits look like is little girls with bug wings. What I'm trying to say is, Proto-Wako would probably be whatever equivalent to a fairy the humans believed in at the time... right?

Anyway I have much more I want to say, but that’ll have to come later. Just wanted to pump this out so I had something to contribute to the early days of the thread. I was supposed to have a lot of stuff prepared to post immediately, but didn't manage to ge tmuch done... Anyway, heres to a fruitful Suweek(s?)

To me the definitive take on Suwako is Zounose's. He does a great job drawing her simultaneously cute and menacing, with an evil smirk and long froggy tongue. And his take on her personality is great too. She acts like one of those outrageous grandmas, the ones who say whatever's on their mind and break the bounds of social norms, because they're old and don't give a shit what you think. All she cares about is to see her granddaughter grow up healthy and happy and hurry up and give her some great-grandchildren already. She also acts as a foil to Kanako; sly when Kanoko is bombastic, crude when Kanako is dignified, friendly when Kanako is standoffish, emotional when Kanako is rational. They make a good comedy duo.

Suwako is kind of hard for me to write in part because I respect Zounose's take on her so much that it would end up feeling like a pale imitation of his Suwako. But there's a deeper problem: she's one of the characters with the strongest roots in Japanese folklore. Most Touhou characters are based on i to some extent, but most of the youkai characters are more defined by their Touhou-unique traits than their folklore backgrounds. The god characters, though, tend to be more deeply connected with actual myth, and Suwako is one of the godliest gods in Touhou; the ancient god of the land, the Suwa Foughten Field, the Native Faith. I can read and research about the Suwa Grand Shrine and the Mishaguji and the legend of Moreya until my eyes fall out, but I wasn't born in Japan. I didn't grow up with anything like this. I merely adopted the Japanese folklore, and when I try to write in depth about the Touhou gods and especially Suwako, it comes off feeling like a cardboard cut-out representation, a caricature. I don't know what I don't know, I don't know how engage with the myths in a way that would feel right to a Japanese with a proper claim to the culture. So, I try to stick to a surface level depiction of Suwako, use her as a secondary character, and just hint at the hidden depths that I'm not qualified to depict.

I do like her a lot, though! The combination of scary and cute is a powerful one. I'm happy to read works about her from real Japanese, or people who are better at faking it than I am.

>>19603
Sure, sure, but I guess one of the attractive parts of the fairy origin are Cirno parallels. Well light parallels anyways. In PoFV and HSiFS she ends up going on adventures but in those she has other people who care about her or who are at least looking after her safety like Aya and Okina while Suwako wouldn't have anyone like that. Then again I really like Cirno so I connected everything back to her.

>>19604
Yeah I really Like Zounose's take as well, can't really say much on the mythology front, but I suppose my only gripe with Zounose's Suwako is that it differs from my headcanons about her. Of course considering that this is the Touhou fandom, you can just make shit up or write whatever you want about Suwako using your limited understanding of her and her folklore.

>>19603
>Like, fairies are forces of nature given form, but they look like that because of belief, right?
Well, you see, the problem is we don't know. Why fairies look like fairies is one of the least explained aspects of Touhou.

>>19605
>Like, fairies are forces of nature given form, but they look like that because of belief, right?
Wish the fans actually included anything intresting. But oh well.

Then again, I don't intend to use her myself outside of being a minor shopkeeper who openly brag about staying out of the plot.

>>19609
Kanako seems more like the sort to run a shop.

I did promise some academic stuff for Suwako earlier, didn’t I? Well, here’s my attempt! This took a bit longer than I’d originally anticipated (doesn’t everything) because most of the sources I remember, I didn’t save. Then I floundered on the topic for almost the whole week, doing nothing much except hitting dead ends on search engines and staring at a blank document. FUCK!

So Suwako is based on Suwa Myoujin, who in Japanese mythology was the original god of Suwa Shrine who was defeated by Takeminakata, who along with his wife Yasakatome are what Kanako is based on.

First is the other gods of the Suwa grand shrine complex. Suwako’s mishaguji are also gods, and it is theorised their real life worship dates back to the Jomon period. They’re occasionally depicted as being phallic, likely because they were gods of fertility. The other gods of Suwa shrine are Long Legs and Long Arms, two distinct giants who are retainers of the shrine and who are worshiped at Tenaga Shrine and Ashinaga Shrine (Shinto miraheze wiki, Tenaga and Ashinaga). They’re the subject of one of Suwako’s spell cards, but wouldn’t it be fun if they were their own characters, too?

Suwako and her retinue being Jomon era gods is pretty interesting I think, and opens up a lot of potential with her character for pre-Gensokyo settings. How do you think she’s changed over the years? I know >>19600 said her current from might be a reduced version of her former self, but do you think she, I don’t know, chased the trends of the time? (probably not, considering what we see of her, but I can imagine Kanako insisting she be fashionable lole). Was she blonde back then also?

What else is interesting about the real life Suwa shrine is the myth of Suwa Myoujin appointing a young boy to be his priest and ‘physical body’ (Zoku Gunsho Ruiju, should be in the national diet library). You could say that Suwako is young, and a lot of emphasis is put on the Moriya gods having actual bodies… but then again its also said that Suwako, being a native god, consists entirely of faith and doesn’t have a mundane body like Kanako.

There’s a (quite cruel) ‘frog hunting ritual’ at the Suwa Shrine complex’s Mitarashi river, where hibernating frogs are hunted by the participants on New Year’s then skewered on bamboo arrows. (Omayasan Kawazugarishinji article) A similar macabre ritual at the shrine involes the offering of deer heads called the Ontōsai. This offering of deer is linked to the enshrined god’s attribute, hunting. What I find interesting is that Suwa Taisha, the invader god, was of the Yamato / Yayoi, who famously did not get much of their sustenance through hunting but instead farming. Could it be a holdover from the native faith?

I know a lot of these legends are about Suwa Myojin, or Takeminakata – so technically they should be attributed to Kanako, or her missing husband... But its said that Kanako generally appears as the face of the shrine (according to Suwako’s MoF profile), and Suwako was the one who actually handled the ruling… so maybe she did those other things that were attributed to Suwa Myojin too, right?

As an aside, I remember reading about a ritual wherein a mini shrine is set on fire and cast down a hill, and I thought it was attributed to the Suwa shrine. But it might actually be attributed to the clan Moreya, who I haven’t even gotten to yet… and I promise I will get to!

>>19604

I can understand why you might want to use the character to imply such depth, and why you wouldn't want to do research on obscure Japanese mythology for it (considering how often those rabbit holes end in unaccessible documents). However if you want to do something with the character, do it! You don't need to know everything, just use what you know, and use that as inspiration to push forward your story, rather than taking the lore as something that must be followed unbrokenly. God knows I want to see more Suwako stories, so frog ahead, I say!

>>19609

IDK, it seems pretty easy to assume fairies look like that because of introduced European folklore. But, a Suwako shopkeeper is very cute! I'd imagine she'd sit out the front porch with Kanako on one of those rocking chairs, jibing at customers coming in. What goods would she deal in? And would the shop be Yasaka's, formerly Moriya's?

>>19620
>What else is interesting about the real life Suwa shrine is the myth of Suwa Myoujin appointing a young boy to be his priest and ‘physical body’ (Zoku Gunsho Ruiju, should be in the national diet library). You could say that Suwako is young, and a lot of emphasis is put on the Moriya gods having actual bodies… but then again its also said that Suwako, being a native god, consists entirely of faith and doesn’t have a mundane body like Kanako.
It's okay. I have my own ideas about things you've mentioned; although it's not exactly popular in the fandom, one of the interpretations I thought of, although I haven't talked about it before, is that this ritual is where Sanae's descendants come from. Not in a marriage or Suwako giving birth sort of way, but Suwako cementing her existence as a god by more or less adopting a human child. With the child, of course, becoming her blood relation though magic. I saw something similar in the manga Reiwa no Dara-san, where a man is adopted into the family of a god and so his descendants are also treated as hers.
This is also how I imagine the Hakurei Shrine works, when a new shrine maiden is sworn in they become part of the Hakurei lineage, regardless of who their birth parents were.
I think most people go with the Suwa' husband thing by default, but at the same time it makes Suwako a bit too human, ya' know?

i'll take the slight uptick in horniness as a sign to post. i like the 'wacko. she's real cute with such an iconic design. in terms of actual attractiveness, a handsome kanako is more of my thing. i do however have to thank suwako as one of the first to show me that おねショタ comes in many sizes. (shoutout to the suwa shota series of doujinshi) and more than just any loli, she stands to me as the eminent lolibaba of touhou. it's only now after ten years that i'm seeing their appeal and she, by far, had been the first one.

i've noticed as well there's something about her design that, somehow, actually makes me pay attention to the differences in how artists portray her. i wondered if it was just the simplicity at first but i don't remember ever caring as much with the likes of cirno or rumia. things like how much the purple outer droops or retains it's shape, the volume of the white inner and how much it sags or conforms to her body, the shape and make of her hat, how 'wet' or 'dry' she appears, her height, tongue, eyes and hair. there's a lot of variation in texture and overall feel for more or less the same outfit, and however approachable or mysterious she appears, either fits.

>>19603
>She's motivated to further the interest of the shrine by virtue of that helping Kanako and Suwako, but she doesn't have any sort of appetite or ambition beyond that.
this is my *uninformed* take on her as well. she might not fear her own end, but i imagine she would happily help with whatever kanako's cooking for the shrine and sanae in general. way i see it, she's like someone halfway into retirement, if it were truly possible for a god. i do like the idea that she's quite resourceful and had her hands on a few things behind the scenes. that said, not extending her exploits beyond 'work' seems like a missed opportunity. why not give her something fun and incidental? or something strange.
>>19600
admittedly, the whole mishaguji and curse god aspect of her is probably the thing i have the weakest grasp of so this is an interesting read through. i really am not sure what i'll make of the sneks if the day ever comes that i write her.
>>19620
first off, thank you for the research however scuffed it was!
>You don't need to know everything, just use what you know, and use that as inspiration to push forward your story, rather than taking the lore as something that must be followed unbrokenly.
not that anon but thank you also for saying this, and i second it too. it's a pervasive feeling when writing since i know so little, and even if i don't intend to dive deep, portraying an existing character is another layer of fear i have to get through. hell, i don't even know what the four seasons are actually like. go! do what you can, i say.
>What goods would she deal in?
beelzebufo.
>>19621
>becoming her blood relation though magic
i've been keeping a similar idea for something though it's not moriya-related. tying it to japanese mythology gives me something to think about. thanks!
>but at the same time it makes Suwako a bit too human, ya' know?
that's quite alright with me.

>>19621

Thats an interesting concept, but I wanted to focus on:

>it makes Suwako a bit too human

I do envision Suwako as acting human, but not necessarily having human motivations and psychology. Like how some people with mental conditions like psychopathy, autism etc. are able to learn how normies act and emulate how they think. So, Suwako’s just acting how she’s learned a human acts.

This isn’t to say that everything she does is a farce, or she’s just waiting for the moment to drop the mask and unleash a blight upon some farmer because she looked at him funny (or asked her to make the frogs quiet, according to her SoPM article!). Maybe the reason she’s so reclusive is because, like actual people with those mental conditions, it is exhausting to emulate normal behavior? So if she spent too long keeping the act up around others it might slip and she’d do something regrettable. Maybe.

>>19623

>first off, thank you for the research however scuffed it was!

:DDDDDDD

>i've noticed as well there's something about her design that, somehow, actually makes me pay attention to the differences in how artists portray her

Suwako’s design really does vary a lot. Recently I came across some old Touhou meme videos, and Suwako’s depicted as very childish in them. There’s also that one Yotsuba inspired Moriya doujin series, Suwakoto, where she’s childlike too. She’s super cute! But I prefer more mature presentations for my froge.

Suwako does have great variance in eye color, as well. In her original game they’re yellow, in Hisoutensoku they’re blue, in SoPM they’re purple… I’ve seen green eyed wakos in fan art too, but I’m not sure if there’s anything offical like that. I think she suits yellow the best, its the most froggy eye color!

Thank you for frogging. What do you want after frogging?

[X] Morichika Rinnosuke
[X] Rumia
[X] Chen

[X] Morichika Rinnosuke

[X] Chen

[X] Chen

[X] Cheeeen!

>>19625
Morichika Rinnosuke

[X] Morichika Rinnosuke
give the only (noticeable) male character in touhou a very delayed Father's day

[X] Chen

>chen won
Grim

>>19633 there's still time... uuuh... probably...

Well, we've had Ran, so it's time for Chen, the hyperactive bakeneko. There actually was some discussion of her during Ran's week, so let's continue where we left off, more or less, shall we?
Also, please keep it in mind - she has really long bright-red nails. Why would a rambunctious kid like her keep them decorated like that?...

My favorite depiction of Chen is, without a doubt, that she is essentially Ran's adopted daughter, even if that's not the precise "role" the Shikigami of a Shikigami would be.

Seriously, it is. So. God. Damned. CUTE!

Whether that be as Chen as being rambunctious or shy, or Ran being either strict or absurdly doting, it is perfection. Fox adopts cat, best story of the century.

Chen is a feral cat, on a maturity level even below the fairies. It's hard to see her as a character, she's more of a prop to say something about Ran's character, or about the shikigami system as a whole.

Honestly I'm not sure there's a ton to do with her. The "my shikigami has its own shikigami" gimmick is fun but ZUN already had his fun there. The one case I can think of where she was used well in storytelling was in Mystia's Izakaya, because the protagonist and her close friends are also on the immature side, so having Chen as the debt collector kept things light. If Yukari came directly, the threat to Mystia's kneecaps would seem too real. So I guess that's a good use for Chen, as a path for the world of the small fry idiots to intersect with the world of the Sages.

>>19635
>There actually was some discussion of her during Ran's week, so let's continue where we left off, more or less, shall we?
Well, if so, I would argue she's a very misunderstood character. She's kind of a spoiled little shit who loves causing trouble and is largely unreliable.

She's cute, I guess. But to most human villagers she's a menance and it's pretty likely she murders outsiders.

>>19635
I already said what I had to say about her during Ran week, but I tend to see her as Ran's bratty teenage daughter. Not too reliable as a shikigami, mostly due to Ran treating her as a daughter first and foremost and as a shikigami second. Age-range or maturity wise I imagine she's closer to Wriggle or Mystia rather than Cirno or Rumia.
Ran probably treats her too softly and with too little discipline, but I don't think Chen is a real danger to anyone. She knows where her boundaries are.

>>19637
I didn't like Chen as a character choice in Mystia's Izakaya. Tewi and Cirno would have made more sense, and I would have preferred them. I can see Tewi doing predatory loans easier than Yukari and Cirno professes herself to be Mystia's food cart rival.
But in general I agree, she makes for a more low-level approachable face for Yuakri's shenanigans.
I would disagree about her being even lower on the maturity levels then fairies, true ZUN said:
>It's said that nekomata are cats that have lived too long and assumed a human form, but Chen doesn't seem like someone that lived that long.
>When beast youkai become old enough to transform, their personalities may differ depending on whether they become a child or an adult.
About her in WOotHS, but most fairies are really childish. Chen, being Ran's sort-of-daughter sort-of-pet, can't really be said to be feral in any capacity. Besides that she uses sorcery and seems to have some learning unlike most fairies. I like to imagine she runs chores for Ran occasionally. Especially in the winter when Ran is more busy covering for Yukari.

>>19639
>But in general I agree, she makes for a more low-level approachable face for Yuakri's shenanigans.
I can't help but laugh at that knowing that really should be Ran's job.

> I like to imagine she runs chores for Ran occasionall
It's not impossible. But I honestly get the impression going by PMISS she just goes around causing trouble rather than actually doing her job.

>>19640
>Reimu's job should be done by Ran
>Chen shouldn't exist and be entirely replaced by Ran
>Hates Yukari
I'm beginning to think you really like Ran.
I feel like there are different levels and type of approachability. Like technically the gap hag can appear to anyone using her teleportation, but for a fanfic like Ecology having Ran as an assistant/friend to Tanner is easier for the story than having Ran, just like sometimes Tanner is with Chen. There's of course the desire to not just give you character access to Yukari so she won't solve most problems immediately, compared to Ran who has less capabilities and by virtue of not being a Sage can more easily interact with other non-sage authority figures as equals. Then you have Chen who's even more of an underling, has even less authority.
It depends on what you want to use them for and how you write them, but I think the authority each of them has and their species is the big sort of difference there.

>>19641
>I'm beginning to think you really like Ran.
I don't. I just think she is criminally underused. In canon, in fanon, in PCB, etc.

As I said before: To me Ran is the Darth Vader to Yukari's Palpatine. The point is that she isn't equal and that's why Yukari uses her. She's a immensely powerful Kitsune who should be able to go to toe with any problem. Even in a place like gensokyo there aren't many people who can go to toe to toe with her. Least of all any human villagers, with even most Youkai exterminators who are genuinly anti Gensokyo and still aspire to one day free the human village viewing her, not even Yukari, as the first big wall to getting anything done.

Chen by contrast is just kind of a lazy nothing burger. Her authority is limited to the cats of Mayohiga, and even then not really. Human villagers view her as a annoyance, other Youkai don't even seem to consider her hot shit, and most gods probably just spray her with a water bottle if she ever starts acting up. That's fine though, she serves to humanize (For lack of a better phrase) Ran and serve as a contrast to the way Yukari threats Ran(Because as with most things the most important part is to highlight the fact that Yukari is irredeemably evil).

>>19642
>Ran is the Darth Vader to Yukari's Palpatine.
That's kind of my point, Yukari and Ran have different levels of authority so they're used differently in fanficiton. Chen as a lackey has even less authority, in Ecology when Tanner travels with Chen it's because Ran is busy and he needs someone to be dispatched alongside who can do Danmaku, and P. Crazy writes Chen with a level of intelligence where it's not unbelievable she'd be tasked with a mission like this even if she's not to Ran's level. They have different uses, besides if you want to have a story about humanizing Ran or Yukari Chen is really useful for that.
Even if others don't take her as seriously, just like people don't take Ran as seriously as Yukari. For one thing Ran in Ecology has a stick up her ass, lol.
I'm not that fond of writing Yukari or Ran in the first place so I tend be to more attracted to Wriggle, Tewi, Sekibanki...etc other weak characters, but Chen still has her place.

>>19643
I'm not opposed to the idea, frankly. I just wish people used Ran more in general. Chen and Yukari eating up all of the attention is a huge shame to me.

>>19644
>I just wish people used Ran more in general.
Have you read Touhou fanfiction? People love Ran, in every sense of the word.

>>19645
People don't like Ran. They like the idea of big sexy fox women. Like, whatever, people can do what they want. But Ran rarely gets a portrayal with some actual meat on it (Well, I mean, metaphorically).

>>19646
I said read fanfiction not look at fanart.

>>19647
Even in fan fiction she often gets the short end of stick. At best she's relegated to Yukari's wife. Which is... a intresting choice. In the same way that unironically shipping Harley Quinn and the Joker is a intresting choice.

ANYWAY, to get away from Ran and me bitching about Touhou fanfiction. I kind of wish we knew more about how cats are treated in gensokyo in general. Human villagers are generally fearful and it genuinly makes me wonder if they wouldn't put down cats that are "Too old" to prevent them from turning into Youkai. Probably not, at least in canon, but in fanon it might be a intresting way to give them a more spiteful and vindictive side.

>>19648
That is my problem with her in Redo/Reimu, and the fic in general. Things were verging on getting a bit twee and maternal before the Marisa arc. I like "Ecology and Research Travels", Ran though, I'd recommend reading it.
But yeah I agree on the headcanon, well sorta, I like to think that animal abuse raises the chance of an animal becoming a youkai, alongside very long. Of course there's always the Enoko option as well of them having eaten hermit/human meat too much and not being cleansed of the taste.

>>19644
>I just wish people used Ran more in general.

>>19646
>Ran rarely gets a portrayal with some actual meat on it

You may want to read Recovery of Beloved Matriarch, from the Touhou Ibunshu collection of stories.

The "mainline" stories of Touhou Ibunshu typically have Reimu (and Marisa) as the protagonist, but the interim stories explore the various other characters. RoBM is told from Ran's PoV and centers on her story, which naturally means there's a lot of focus on Yukari and on their relationship too. Ibunshu as a whole is generally okay-ish, but RoBM in particular is quite good. It's one of those stories I keep coming back to and re-reading every once in a while.

The first Ran appearance in Ibunshu is actually on Youmu's "interim" story, Resolute and Ghostly Gardener. Ran's not the protagonist but she does have some scenes that establish her character pretty well. If you want to read the rest of the stories though you will have to start at the begining, since there's worldbuilding there that you won't understand the rest of the series without.

This is purely a matter of taste, but personally I love the author's characterization of Ran in his stories. TFW you will never be adopted by a stern but loving fox youkai, y evn liv.

The stories are old and some of them only survive in the Internet Archive. Here's the links to RoBM and RaGG in the IA. The author still maintains a website for the stories, but at some point he nuked the site and now only a handful of stories survive in "remastered" form, which means he went back and proofread/rewrote the stories. The remasters are generally a bit better but RoBM isn't there at all, and somehow RaGG and RoPP (another interim) are better in the older versions.

https://web.archive.org/web/20100115115033/http://usuallydead.com/stories/touhou/robm/part1.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20110912030851/http://www.usuallydead.com:80/stories/touhou/ragg/part1.html
https://www.usuallydead.com/touhou-stories-nav

>>19649
>>19651
>Touhou Ibunshu
Been years since I read that. Always had a soft spot for that despite bordering on "Ow, the edge" at times.

My own novel started out as a Touhou Ibunshu esque project before morphing into it's own none Touhou thing.

>The stories are old and some of them only survive in the Internet Archive
Genuinely makes me sad to realize the generation of fanfiction I read as a teenager is slowly dying out.

>>19651
>>19652
The current topic is Chen, not Ran. If you want to keep on with talking about Ran, go to >>17770.

If you want to discuss Touhou fanfiction generally, take it to >>17303.

Shikigamies are over, what would you like to see next?

[X] Morichika Rinnosuke
[X] Rumia
[X] Toutetsu Yuuma

>>19654
Rumia

[X] Morichika Rinnosuke

[X] Toutetsu Yuuma

[X] Toutetsu Yuuma

Yup.

[X] Rumia
Because animal realm bad.

[X]Mario

Let's a go...

[X] Toutetsu Yuuma

Another glimpse into the Animal Realm, huh? It's Toutetsu Yuuma, the leader of the Gouyoku Alliance. Taoties often appear on old chinese ritual vessels as ornamental motifs - do you think that has any thematic connection to her role, or at least her abilities? And speaking of her abilities... Was she perhaps a totally different person at some point? After all, her profile says that the things she consumes seem to influence her personality.
...It's kind of a gauche question at this point, but what do you think Ran and Yuuma's past relationship is/was like?
...We can't get enough of Ran, can we.

Yuuma is perhaps ZUN's most absolutely wild creation.

This is a goat with the hunger of Kirby, she has a giant spork, she's got shark teeth, she's a Yakuza boss in the underworld, commanding eagles, her second used to be Ran of all people, and she fights Flan over a lake of blood to contest Okina trying to obtain a strategic oil reserve, which she's using as an all-you-can-eat buffet.

Oh, and she's short as shit, and she randomly became domesticated between games.

Did someone slip something into ZUN's beer?

My favorite gag is her bullying Tsukasa. My second is Flan being her friend after beating the smack outta her, because that's just Flan getting into the Gensokyo spirit.

>>19663 Don't forget that she is the closest thing Touhou has to Satan, being a goat demon leader in hell.

And she is one of only... I think two? characters in windows touhou that can go straight-up monster mode, the other being dormy.

Yuuma gives the Animal Realm something it needs. Post UDoALG Yachie is too much of a pitiful failure to be menacing, and Saki is strong and has loyal underlings but she's a straightforward threat. Yuuma provides a Yakuza boss who's actually cunning and threatening and feels properly hellish. She came the closest of any of them to unraveling Zanmu's game in UDoALG. If you want to have Animal Realm intrigue, she's probably going to be taking point.

Much less impressed with her in SFW. She was just a big dangerous threat consumed by greed, with none of her cunning. But that Yuuma got destroyed by the girl who can destroy absolutely anything, so we have the fun and interesting UDoALG Yuuma from now on.

Quick note, I'm pretty sure she's supposed to be a sheep, not a goat. Goats' horns look different than that.

Oh boy, Yuuma won.

Guess that means I'm skipping this week. Oh well, at least I like her design. Well, her original design. When she came back It was a massive downgrade.

>>19662
>...It's kind of a gauche question at this point, but what do you think Ran and Yuuma's past relationship is/was like?
I will never forgive ZUN for connecting Ran to the animal realm. It's straight up monkey paw curling.

With that said, if you MUST do it the only real use I would have for it is Ran acting like a Yakuza boss herself when dealing with the human village. So, with Yuuma being the most Yakuza esque person around I could see her being somewhat of a mentor.

>>19664
>Don't forget that she is the closest thing Touhou has to Satan,
Not even in the top 3 most Satan esque people in Touhou.

I find all three leaders of the animal realm good characters on their own, with Yuuma feeling most between of brute force and scheming.

She's also probably, the most malleable for stories; just say she ate some spicy noodles or something if you want her to extra mad in a story.

Also my vote for second most American Touhou. Leader of eagles and invaded a place for it's oil.

>>19667
>Also my vote for second most American Touhou. Leader of eagles and invaded a place for it's oil.
Who is the first most American? Yukari?

>>19668
Clownpiece

>>19669
That's a extremely shallow read of both Clownpiece and America.

>>19669
>>19670
As an American, it's quite accurate.

But back to the oil guzzler rather than the star-spangled insanity fairy.

>>19666
>Yuuma discussion week.
>Performative hate of the animal realm and Ran posting again
You LOVE to see it people, but I already talked enough about how I liked what the Animal Realm did for Ran during Ran week so I'll abstain from going into that subject again. Have a Ran/Yumma drawing.

>>19662
I don't think her connection to ritual vessels is fairly straightforward, it sort of overlaps with her gluttony gimmick, with Yuuma being a 'vessel' that takes on the properties of what's inside her. That and her dress motifs, in my mind I imagine a Yuuma with one of tose rigid dressed so her skirt takes on a bowl shape. In regards to her personality, I imagine her situation is sort of like how i imagine Koishi to be, both of them have things that are core to them: goals, overarching motives, wants, desires, loves and enmities, but those things express themself differently depending on what Yuuma has eaten, or in Koishi's case who she's been exposed to.
In either case I feel like it makes both of them pretty malleable and useful: they have a strong core, but are very whimful and are easily influenced. I like it. Basically what >>19667 said

Anyways about Ran, I forgot to mention this during Ran week, but since this has to do with how her relationship with Yuuma was I'll say it here. Anyway, I like to think Ran was the former matriarch of the Keiga. Back then she also filled out the power of the whole power-to-cunning spectrum the animal realm leaders have with Saki, Yuuma, and Yachie.
Except like Saki, she was very introspective and angst-ful, she wasn't like most Kitsune, having no cunning, but was very gifted with sorcery and with raw strength. Yuuma, although a rival, did her best to be an encouraging force in her life. Of course from Ran's PoV having her enemy go:
>We're not so different, you and I, embrace the stuff you don't like about yourself!
Did exactly endear her to Yuuma, especially since Yuuma was so blunt, tactless, and didn't understand Ran's PoV at all. They were still friends, but in a semi-one-sided way that Keike and Yachie are now.
And ironically, I think Ran would like Keiki and what she did to the animal realm. Maybe if Ran stuck around for longer of Keiki arrived sooner, she would have stayed in the more modern animal realm, or maybe the animals still having the same ideology would be too much for her and she'd leave.
Either way I think if Yuuma was as good a friend to Ran as she thought she was, then Ran wouldn't have left the animal realm. That isn't to say that Ran dislikes her now, or back in the way, if anything I think Ran getting some perspective and being able to engage with Yuuma as a non-rival helped their relationship.

Entire Animal Realm must be purged.

>>19674
How can you even consider that? There's got to be some other way!

I like Yuuma whenever she shows up, and just the entire animal realm as a whole. I like how it doesn't have to adhere to Gensokyo's rules and can serve as a staging point for conspiracies and incursions, ala Touhou 19.

As others have said in the thread I think Yuuma is definitely the best general candidate for an antagonist character from the animal realm.

Her ability to absorb anything while taking on the properties of what she absorbed is also fun, its very strong but also easily manipulated. Like if you shot stuff that would weaken her if she absorbed it at her, or Yuuma actively trying to absorb things to change her ability on the fly. It's got a lot of possibility.

She's also very reasonable. In Sunken Fossil World she talks every character except Flan out of fighting, and even makes a deal with Kanako that 'resolves' the incident by stopping the oil flowing to the surface. I don't think it should be a focal character trait though, as a yakuza she should still be ruthless and willing and ready to fuck over, take out and backstab.

I want to contend >>19665 comment on post UDoALG Yachie though, because I think with her failure / humiliation could be used for some good plots. Does she look at herself critically after her failed invasion? Is there an upset amongst her leadership, with the notion that Yachie's only quality is her powerful ability and that that's her crutch? Would she become more cruel and regress as a result of the event perhaps?

Had enough of animals yet? Here is a selection of non-beasts for the next week.

[X] Morichika Rinnosuke
[X] Rumia
[X] Soga no Tojiko

[X] Morichika Rinnosuke

[X] Morichika Rinnosuke
glasses boy...

>>19677
[X] Soga no Tojiko

[X] Morichika Rinnosuke

The guy! The dude!

[X] Morichika Rinnosuke

[X] Soga no Tojiko

The legal wife.

[X] Rumia
As much as I think how interesting Rinnosuke would be, I don't think I have much to say about him

Morichika Rinnosuke is a bit unusual for Touhou, since he's not a girl, and not a danmaku user, and a human-youkai hybrid, all of which are somewhat rare among major named characters (some traits more rare than others). He also has a rather interesting ability of knowing the names and purposes of tools, even ones he's never seen before. What's the deal with that? The way it seems to work implies a lot about Touhou's in-universe ontology... Erm, or maybe it doesn't...

(And here's a much nosier question that gets brought up quite often with Rinnosuke: is he supposed to be ZUN's self-insert? I don't think it's very interesting to discuss, but if you care.)

Ah yes, Rinnosuke. For fun, try to discuss him without bringing up his gender.

I like Rinnosuke, but I must admit his existence as a character does feel rather off. I won't call him a remnant characters like Keine or Sakuya, but Youkai and humans having sex feels kind of implausible with the way Gensokyo is presented nowadays. Granted, he IS supposed to be older than Gensokyo itself. So it's possible Human X Youkai relationships are just banned in modern Gensokyo .

Outside of that, I also must admit that his existence and relationship with both Marisa's dad and Marisa is generally proof that Marisa's dad probably isn't THAT bad. He's a conservative merchant, but not downright abusive or even that unpleasant.

As for fanfiction, I tend to think he works best as a plot point. He's close to Marisa, and can potentially even serve as a damsel in distress. He also works well as a guy who is just generally in the know about Gensokyo.

>>19685
I've always thought of the essence of Rinnosuke's ability as being able to read the souls of objects, and since objects know their own purpose it effectively allows him to read that.
On a separate note, I also feel like Rinnosuke is another useful, or convenient character, he's long lived, a half-human, is close to Reimu and Marisa while seemingly knowing a lot about them and their families, and not to mention he's relatively close to Yukari as well. He seems to know a lot as well and with his more-or-less friendly demeanor can be reasonably be said to have a friend-or-quantaship with any sort of village based character.
If you need exposition, a useful tool, or a friend he's there. I also tend to think of him as a tech-y character, maybe he could have an interesting conversation or two with the Witches?

I see him as a very passive character, mostly content with the way things are and uninterested in doing much unless an outside force acts on him. Although maybe a situation could happen that, due to some personal feelings, would force him into action.

>>19686
I don't think Rinnosuke is actually that restrictive on Marisa's backstory or on the levels of abuse her father could inflict. I think Rinnosuke being mostly passive helps on that front and while Marisa might dislike him if he was too passive his gift to her, the Mini-hakkero, allowed her to leave home and become a witch anyways.
On Rinnosuke's part, I could easily see him bearing with somebody even if he doesn't like them and doesn't approve of their actions, especially if he's indebted to them like with Marisa's father who helped him out in the past. (Of course not literal debt)

Touhou is a wonderful place for fan creation because so many compelling characters are left with their stories untold. Kourin isn't one of them. Kourin was created to be the narrator for a series of short stories, and ZUN has been writing those short stories. There is so much unclaimed territory to write about in Touhou, I don't see any need to encroach on Morichika Rinnosuke.

He is one half of the only plausible hetship in Touhou, RinMari. If you're a heterofriend who's somehow into Touhou anyway, there you go.

>>19686
I don't see why you think human/youkai intimate relations are implausible in modern Gensokyo? There's still plenty of youkai like Sannyo or Miyoi that can pass in the human village. Not hard to imagine Kourin's youkai parent as someone of that ilk.

>>19688
>He is one half of the only plausible hetship in Touhou, RinMari. If you're a heterofriend who's somehow into Touhou anyway, there you go.

>>19688
>I don't see why you think human/youkai intimate relations are implausible in modern Gensokyo?
Because Gensokyo is all about maintaining the balance between Youkai and Humans. While theoretically a half human and half youkai is part of that balance. In reality they would most likely pick either side and in the case they pick humans are a serious risk to Gensokyo. They are basically the ultimate lifeforms. Long lived, magically gifted, and not dependent on human

>>19690
>in the case they pick humans are a serious risk to Gensokyo
Mamziou says something to the effect about Tanuki in the outside worrld becoming human after forgetting their origin as Tanuki, so I imagne it just works on LoTR logic.
For half breeds you chose to live among youkai (elves), you become more youkai-like, you live among humans(men), you become more human-like. Eventually you'll become fully human or fully youkai unless, like Rinnosuke, you keep a balance.

>>19691
They also mention the possibility of that youkai fox who studies at the school in Forbidden Scrollery becoming a human.

>>19691
>>19692
It's certainly possible, but at least to me it still seems pretty unlikely Gensokyo would allow this. Then again, canon Gensokyo is so sexless I genuinly can't imagine Youkai and humans dating anyway.

Mind you, I could see the rich getting away with it. Merchants have to interact with Youkai all the time and, at least on some level, have to understand they are dealing with Youkai.

>>19693
Yeah I think I'd go that route too. Just so there's more tension for youkai/human romance stories, of course there's other ways to add tension to a story like that.
I'll have to reread the KMS eventually...