For the new thread's first vote, let's have:

[x] Kurodani Yamame
[x] Kicchou Yachie
[x] Iizunamaru Megumu

While we were talking about Reimu and the lost qilin, Marisa decided to run off on an adventure without warning, but she should come back to us eventually...
By the way, it has to be asked: which voting format do you prefer, based on the previous thread - cycling through groups of three in voted order or gradually replacing characters as they are voted for?

[x] Iizunamaru Megumu
[x] cycling through groups of three in voted order

Nooo Marisa come back...
I might need a Megumu discussion for reasons.

[x] Iizunamaru Megumu
Yamame has been experiencing a fandom renaissance lately, and I haven't researched any of these 2hus, but I'll have to choose the 10gu.
Here's a picture of her relative(?) for reference.

[x] Kurodani Yamame
ze spaider

[X] Kicchou Yachie

I like the dragon lady.

[x] Iizunamaru Megumu

I kinda like the fanon building up around Megumu.

[x] Iizunamaru Megumu

I prefer the gradual replacement.

[x] Kicchou Yachie

Starting anew with Iizunamaru Megumu.
Quite a robust, reference-heavy character. There is a lot to look into with her, but also a lot to expand upon. In many ways, she's great for modern-era fanworks, don't you think? By the way, her name is (a very weird nanori reading of the kanji for) "Dragon". What does that have to do with anything? I wonder...

>>18694
I feel like Megumu is a relatively popular modern era windows character. I think this is in part due to how well she contrasts with Aya. Megumu is lazy with her articles, single-mindedly attempts to concentrate wealth and power to the tengu, proud and boisterous, is second only to the Tenma, and despite her underhandedness works within the bounds of what's considered acceptable in Gensokyo. While Aya is a lower ranked, proud but more reserved journalist who despite consonantly chaffing against the social order and politics of Genskyo, earnestly tries her best to succeed by her society's standards despite her own politics being rather old fashioned and conservative by the standards of Gensokyo.
Despite all of that, she can be surprising gentle and kind to those she considers friends. She even seems to be entirely fooled by Tsukasa's act and seems to think the fox is a loyal, trustworthy, and straightforward steward. So despite her underhandedness, there's an earnest cute side to her, and considering her fortune slip I think that carries into her views of romance as well.
Due to how much she contrasts to Aya, I like to imagine she's actually the younger of the two, which would make her a young energetic relative given the position of Great Tengu due to nepotism. In this case she'd probably be niece or something like that to her mythological inspiration Izuna Gongen. In addition to that point, I'd probably cast her as someone more liberal, or perhaps just falling in line with the progressive liberal sensibilities of the current political climate in Gensokyo.
I'd love to see a total combat maniac like her in a fighting game.

>>18695
>I'd love to see a total combat maniac like her in a fighting game.

While we're on the topic, how do you think Megumu would work in a fighting game? We know she uses her tripod to bludgeon subordinates and she's got a whole dragon and stars theme going on with her. I image she throws stars and lasers at opponents to zone them out before rushing them down to beat them down with her tripod.
I also don't think we see a lot of Megumu's supposed battle maniac side in canon. I've read fanon doujins where she throws down with Momoyo and earns her respect that way, but I'd like to see her actively seek out conflicts to get involved in and fight people.
What I'm trying to say is that she should totally show up in CDS and beat the ectoplasm out of Mizuchi.

>>18699
Probably something like Shiki's knife from MBAACC with melee moves if it's not thrown yet. It doesn't have to be super complicated to get the point across.

Like a boomerang!

The character, as well as tengu in Touhou as a whole, seem to me to be inspired by the ‘men in black’, shadow government, state apparatus type stuff. In one of Unconnected Marketeer’s endings she’s plotting with Kanako right after using another kami for her own devices (UM Sanae endings), her tube fox subordinate establishes some kind of relationship with their shrine maiden Sanae (UM ending and Sanae and Tsukasa’s stage dialogue in UdoaLG) , and in her appearance in Lotus Eaters she claims that the Tengu completely control the flow of information in Gensokyo, and that Tengu wouldn’t sell out their own (https://mangadex.org/chapter/115ecc06-f7b2-4d50-a05f-fbe9400a403e/22). A bit on the nose there ZUN.

I see a lot of potential for her and her vulpine subordinate in Youkai Mountain intrigue plots.

Anyway, I was trying to search for materials on her inspiration, Izuna Gongen, and just kept hitting brick walls. The only source in English I could find on them was this article from the encyclopedia of Shinto (https://d-museum.kokugakuin.ac.jp/eos/detail/?id=9932).

The Japanese sources I tried to search for from their Japanese Wikipedia page weren’t uploaded online, so I can’t access them, which is a damn shame. If anyone has any scholarly / historic articles they could share on the character, They would be extremely well appreciated.

>>18699
For a combat maniac, I think rushdown could also be good. But imagine she's strike a pose each time she makes an attack she also strikes a pose, while her tripod would be a short, but annoying, disjointed hitbox.
To use picrel for what I imagine, at about the same distance to Reimu, Megumu would freeze up for a moment then attack with her tripod, hitting Reimu. So if someone tired to rush her down, if you got the timing right, Megumu would hit them with her tripod before they hit you. Of course if you do it too late or too early then Megumu is the one getting a face full of fist.

>>18701
Yeah, sadly there don't seem to be a lot of readily available sources on that, I do remember a doujin series where it's mentioned that Megumu was worshipped as a god once.
https://danbooru.donmai.us/pools/20436
So there's that angle to work with, although I don't view Megumu as someone as somber and calm as she's presented in this series. Even if Megumu looks like an grown woman she's pretty energetic and naive.
It's a cute contrast between that and her position as a daitengu.
More about tengu generally, I remember some myths I heard once about how the origin of japanese steel fan martial arts is from tengu.
I did also find this wordpress blog, which shines some light on why Megumu might have a stars theme due to Ilzuna Gongen having a connection to a deity of the cosmos. https://asceticsandpilgrims.wordpress.com/2012/11/24/takaosan/img_1914/
I don't know the truth of it, but seeing the merging of mythologies and how dim the lines between buddha, god, and youkai can be is fun. It's been mentioned that there are probably hermits among the tengu, it'd be kind of funny is there are some tengu-buddhists who are interested in properly playing their role as testers of faith instead of just slandering people in newspapers.

Izuna Gongen having connections to a star deity reminds me of the afterword of the Doujin Izunary Friend where the author says that Megumu's ability to manipulate the starry sky could be connected to the Youkai constellations named by Yukari as well as the Big Dipper and Tengu connections having ties to Okina.

>>18706
Oh yeah, I remember that doujin now! Megumu was really charismatic in that. Although reading the afterward again, it mentions a descent of Izuna Gongan, which makes me think of the word descendant. That makes me wonder, are Megumu and Ran relatives? Ah, Tengu and Amanojakuu might also be related, youkai families sure are weird.
Ex-punk mother and her blue Daitengu grandmother, an adoptive cat daughter, with a lazy Yukari in there for good measure. Of course if you put Megumu as a relative of Izuna instead of the tengu/god itself, then I guess they could be cousins, with Megumu being that one annoying ambiguously related family member.
Either way, despite her demeanor, might Megumu actually be surprisingly qualified for her position as a Daitengu? That's a scary thing to imagine, a stage 5 boss like her with such a gullible personality being really strong. Although she's also ended up alongside Shou in the, 'Snubbed from being playable by your subordinate.'
So sad, although that makes me think that Shou and Megumu might me a seriously amusing pair, someone as serious and harsh as Shou paired with someone as excitable and fight happy like Megumu. Not to mention they're both drunks considering touhou I think my assumption here about Megumu is correct, one a tengu, the other's a buddhist idol, and both of them are martial types.
Although I wonder who we'll see first, the other Daitengu or the Tenma. I wonder there's a white wolf Daiteng.

Ah, Megumu. Weird character for me. Have plenty to say and plenty of fondness for Tengu as a whole, but not much about her specifically. Like to headcanon her as a female version of J. Jonah Jameson when she isn't being a sinister mastermind.

Really, biggest question I have of Tengu as a whole is when we are going to see the other castes and who Tenma actually is. Did some research to actually figure out who it is but I'm still not entirely sure. Emperor Tenma is a pretty likely candidate but outside of Suika, ZUN mostly tends to stay away from the Great Youkai terrors of Japan.

Also, is it true that Lotus Eater implies that Tengu are NOT a caste based society?

>>18709
It's hard to imagine JJJ without spiderman, although I've seen him portrayed both as a coward and as respectable. Either way I can't imagine who her Spiderman would be, maybe Cirno? Since Aya and the ice fairy are friends.
I can't remember anything in Lotus Eaters that would imply Tengu aren't caste based, but I like to imagine the castes are racial with some positions like Daitengu being special in that each racial caste has a Daitengu they report to. Who in turn report to the Tenma, an individual chosen from among the Daitengu.
So Tengu can rise within their own caste, maybe even with the chance of becoming a Daitengu. But I like to imagine that who becomes the Daitengu is more decided by who you're related and your abillity for politics. Rather than the merits the of things like newspaper competition.
In general I think that despite the importance placed on them, newspaper competitions are actually a pretty bad way to raise your rank. As all of the higher up Tengus we've met have notably worse newspapers than Aya, but still have a higher rank within Tengu society.

>>18709
>Emperor Tenma
You seem to have confused Tenma with some other mythological figure? Tenma is equated with Mara, but I can't find any equations with emperors.

>who Tenma actually is.
As recently as three months ago I would've said that we will never get any more details on such background figures, but then ZUN went and made Iwanagahime into Ariya. Now, it seems, bets are off and Tenma may appear in person someday. Other than that, association with Mara is clearly useless - Mara is too major and powerful presence in Buddhism to be just chief of tengus in some refuge - so we can hardly say anything at all and can only hope for ZUN's interpretation.

>>18711
Sorry, Emperor Sutoku. One of the three great Youkai terrors of japan.

>Mara
Agree. Though he is a huge SMT fan, I don't think he'll include Mara.

>>18710
I could see her talking shit about Reimu. Also Chimata, I guess.

>but I like to imagine the castes are racial with some positions like Daitengu being special in that each racial caste has a Daitengu they report to
That makes sense. I'm not 100% sure if the Daitengu position was ever implied to be another type of Tengu. More so than that, Megumu is obviously a crow Tengu.

Maybe tengu who hold offices are given new, cooler names based on other mythological figures when they take that office, like some samurai? It'd avoid having to have explicit connections to the figures they're named after, like Izuna and Tenma/Mara. Maybe one of the reasons Megumu keeps Tsukasa around is so she can be more like Izuna? Do you think she mounts her?

>>18712
>I'm not 100% sure if the Daitengu position was ever implied to be another type of Tengu.
PMiSS article on tengu does imply that with listing Tenma and daitengu alongside crows and white wolves. After consultations about Japanese — in this case translation seems to be correct, and 種類 carries even stronger connotations of "biological" (however much that applies to youkai) categories than English term "type".

By the way, some other interesting tidbits from that article:

>Deified youkai who live on the mountain.
What exactly Akyuu means by "deified"? How whatever divine nature tengu acquired manifests itself? However much that entire article stinks of tengu propaganda, there must be some basis to such a claim. Could it describe "taking the mantle" of gods like >>18713 proposes?
(Awesome and very fitting idea btw, novel ideas like this is probably the best thing about character discussion threads)

>大体、姿は人間と変わらないが、大天狗みたいに極端に大きい天狗や、鼻高天狗の様に鼻の高い天狗がいたりする。
My attempt at translation:
>Generally they don't look different from humans, but there are extremely large tengu resembling daitengu, or tengu with long noses* like the Hanataka tengu.
*鼻の高い means "proud" ("nose in the air" works as English equivalent), but it seems in this context it also should be taken literally as a physical description.
Here, translation at wiki is incorrect — original text doesn't say that daitengu are extremely large, only that extremely large tengu exist and they are compared to daitengu. It could be just a wordplay (daitengu-big tengu), or perhaps some of daitengu are indeed large. In any case, concept of giant women among tengu is funny, even though it's extremely likely ZUN would either ignore that old bit of lore or turn it to be metaphorical. Doubly so with literal long-nosed tengu — he doesn't like anything close to deformities on 2hus (see e.g. his thought process on Utsuho).

>>18712
Reimu is a good choice, she says
>Megumu: As if I could let you deal with her, of all people! (Addressing Tsukasa)
>Megumu: Our opponent is the eminent Hakurei Shrine Maiden, who has buried countless innocent youkai until this day.
>Megumu: 'll deal with her. You get back!
That about her. She also made up with Chimata in chapter 38 of Lotus Eaters where she causes a minor incident to make up with Chimata, and also mogs Aya. I guess Marisa is an option but Aya already has dibs on hers. Anyways on there being other Daitengu, Megumu is mentioned as being one of the Daitengu in her profile as well as the chief of the crow Tengu, which is where I get the idea from. Although there could be a situation where Daitengu is just a special rank any race of Tengu can rise to, with chief being the leader of their racial caste. Although for simplicity's sake I think being a Tengu chief is synonyms with being a Daitengu.

>>18711
Well, we did have Suika as Ibuki-douji, but for what that's all about we'll have to wait for her week.

>>18713
In canon. . . Well Megumu seems to think that Tsukasa is relatively harmless, at least she's someone Megumu wants to protect. At the same time I feel like Chimata has more textual evidence with Megumu going out of her way to make up with her, which can be seen as romantic. Although I've also seen some depictions of Megumu who whores out Tsukasa to Momoyo while having a physical relationship with both.

>>18714
There's some conflation between Tengus and Buddhist gods. Although I'm not sure how that translates into Touhou. . .
Other than that I remember there being some correlation between Tengu and Amanozako, but I can't remember what exactly. My headcanon is that Tengu and Amanojaku were once the same species but evolved divergent traits over time and seperated.
Other than that they have the same anti-social rabble rousing personality that loves to stir up trouble with them both causing chaos. One by direct action and disguising themselves as humans, the other one through misinformation. One evolved to be more communal, the other more solitary.
But I think that's all pretty unfounded.
Aside from that I guess you could work with Tengu as the descendant of the same god as Amanojakus, with some optional relation to Sagume thrown in. But its unclear if Amanozako exists in Touhou.

Might Megumu have been inspired by Meg from Family guy? they have similar names and philosophies. Ponder it. Touhou Funny Moments.

As you can gather, votes will now be held on fridays, as it's a bit more convienient to start on weekends.
By the way, you can still continue the discussion while the vote is ongoing, but once a new character is selected, any further comments on previously selected characters can be made in >>17770 The Irregular Character Discussions Thread. Let's vote for the next discussion subject now.

[x] Kurodani Yamame
[x] Kicchou Yachie
[x] Tenkajin Chiyari

Since there were only two comments on the format, and each was in favour of a different option, I guess I can do whatever I want? Lol.

[x] Kicchou Yachie
I vote for the dragon turtle, she may have been cucked in the past but this time she'll have her chance.
Surely!

[x] Kurodani Yamame
ze spaider.

[x] Kicchou Yachie

doragon

[x] Kurodani Yamame
Spiderman

[x] Kicchou Yachie

dragoon

[x] Kicchou Yachie

Drag-On Dragoon

This week, it's Kicchou Yachie, the tortoise-dragon. Quite an unusual creature, right? She's quite an important figure in the Beast Realm, the Kiketsu Family's matriarch, actually. Her otter spirits are often thought of as scheming cowards, but is she like that herself? And let's not forget her ability - it's really quite powerful and terrifying, what do you think of it?

>>18730
For the otters personality wise I think it's hard to tell, the beast spirts don't have very distinct dialogue in WBaWC. However I see Yachie herself as someone polite but conceited, and like the other beast matriarchs she whole heartedly believes in her own ideology which she explains in ending no.8 of WBaWC.
There she says that all beast spirits, including herself, are resources meant to be used up. Which is where her disagreement lies with Keiki, as explained in Youmu's Otter ending. Keiki refuses to look at spirits, especially human spirits, in such a utilitarian way and would prefer to put an end to the endless struggle of the beast realm so she can work with the Matriarchs.
In a sense I think her ideology is the most pathetic as she just wholeheartedly believes in the current status quo of the animal realm. So I agree with Biten here, Yachie does seem a bit pathetic and I think that reflects on how people view her otter subordinates.
Aside from that, I think her ability plays a role in how people view her and the otters. There's the common sense that says,
>"of course the otters are pathetic and have weak personalities, a person like that would be most vulnerable to her ability,'
alongside the common sense that, says
>"of course someone with an ability like that would have a pathetic personality. They always get their way!"
There is also the fact we see an otter defector in chapter 48 Lotus Eaters, true he didn't leave of his own volition. But it says something to Yachie's leadership that he didn't even try to return and joined the Kappa. That and her secretly condescending personality comes across as the least charismatic, not to mention how in WBaWC its mentioned her plan was partly a failure in all routes and how in UDoaLG she gets outsmarted by Aunn on accident, she really does come across as someone pathetic carried by her strong ability. While the Wolves and Eagles seem to have some real loyalty to their matriarchs.

Aside from that, I've been a bit surprised to see both Risui and Fuuzasa do the idea of Yachie thinking Meiling is her sister. It's a bit of an odd pair, but it's played for comedy in both occasions and despite its mythological basing it doesn't feel as trite as its contemporary tropes that exist in the same vein. Although given how little time it has to become trite, unlike certain other tropes in touhou doujin, we'll just have to wait and see how it develops.

For Yachie, I feel she's been mismanaged by Zun in th19. She was supposed to be this super mastermind in th17 and just fails miserably.

>>18733
Femdom (domination loss) is now and will forever be a core part of her appeal.

To be fair to Yachie on that front, it’s a fairly recurring trend for Zun to downplay a schemer’s competence the next time they appear. See “Reimu takes her grandma to the hospital” for a classic example. And all three of the animal realm gangs took their lumps in th19 - Yachie just had the hardest time coping with it.

I find her the most flexible matriarch to work with. Saki is a bit of a meathead, and reconciling her nature with her past with Miko tends to result in fairly narrow paths she can tread character wise, while Yuuma is more of a force-of-nature villain whose influenceable personality makes whats truly ‘her’ harder to pin down.

Yachie feels the most fleshed out despite being simultaneously the most rootless. And the way she’s fleshed out is really interesting; characterising her as having few reliable minions and having to do much of it herself, Yuuma via Chiyari claiming she’s weak because she’s still at least somewhat kind and just faking her frosty demeanour, thw fact her organisation holds par with ones lead by an extra stage and a supposedly invincible taotie, there’s a lot of interesting ways she can be interpreted. I guess I’d say I feel like a longer story starring Yuuma or Saki would require leaning on their other connections, while Yachie could star in a story all by herself.

To be fair, of course, there’s a reason I’ve attached my name to all this.

>>18735
That is a big benefit of more solitary characters, they don't have much connections and are thus freer. Although I think it's worth noting, as a fandom we tend to play up the masterminds even when the games call them failure like Yachie in WBaWC or Zanmu is UDoALG.
Her having a frosty demeanor driving people away while secretly being nice in contrast to professed ideology is a really cute trait. That kind of contrast is pretty good and I think could provide some good contrast especially i she's put in a situation that tests that.
Although I think her lack of connections does also provide some narrowness, we only really have dragon turtle mythology to go off of there. As well as her friendship with Keiki, it's be nice to see these two together again.
I wonder if they could pull off a buddy cop duo...?

>>18739
> As well as her friendship with Keiki, it's be nice to see these two together again.
Friendship?.. Could you expand on it further? Is this ending thing I've missed?

>>18740
They're on good term in Youmu's Otter ending, although Yachie says friendship doesn't exist in the animal realm.
Honestly I think she protests too much, if a dimwit like Youmu can tell they get along well then she's hiding it pretty badly. That and Keiki considers them friends.

Alright, it's about time to vote for the next character. And time for your friendly reminder to make use of >>17770 The Irregular Character Discussions Thread, if you are so inclined. Well, not that it's been forgotten or anything.

[x] Kurodani Yamame
[x] Kotohime
[x] Tenkajin Chiyari

>>18744
[x] Kurodani Yamame
Spider wife, spider wife, wronged by Reimu who won't give her the credit she deserves.

[x] Kotohime

[x] Kotohime

POLICE!

Ack! I've ran out of time to effortpoast... Well, I have been quite busy this week.
I think I'll abstain from voitng this time, though, because I might not be able to post this week either. Really I'm just posting to kick myself in the ass to get something done for the character I voted for in the irregular thread... DAMN IT!

>>18748
You can still Yachie post until Monday UTC.

[x] Kurodani Yamame

[x] Tenkajin Chiyari

>>18744
[X] Kurodani Yamame
Spider love OK!

It seems that Kurodani Yamame won this week. It's an often-ignored trait of hers, but she's actually quite strong, and appears to be good at construction work. She also has a pretty fun ability. Makes you wonder about things like... What kind of diseases does she like to manipulate the most? And what for?
By the way, looking into the history of the word "tsuchigumo" might be interesting to some.

>>18756
>tsuchigumo (土蜘蛛)
I won't be the first person to point out the possible word origin in tuchigomori (土隠) with the tsuchigumo being some sort of mythologization of peoples that existed at the edge of society or predated the japanese. It's not hard to see how those marginalized people, conflated with spiders, would become youkai–if that is the origin of the tsuchigumo people–or the Jomon–native peoples of Japan–could have been more Youkai-like or lived alongside the tsuchigumo before the modern japanese invaded the island. Interestingly enough another Jomon god, Keiki, now lives in hell.
The next thing I can think of is the connection with Suika/Shuten-doji. With both the tsuchigumo and Shuten-douji being targeted by Minamoto no Mitsunaka. Apparently there's a theory about how he was targeted by and in turn targeting the two is that his father formed an alliance with them, but betrayed them in order to save his own skin when the rebellion against the Fujiwara failed.
Although it's not like I have a copy of Truth in Fantasy–the japanese book where this theory comes from–on me so I'm only going by secondary sources here. Although I do feel like that makes an interesting premise for a story set pre-gensokyo.
For her depictions in canon, I like how she's gotten some recent appearances in CDS, with her having secret passages to the surface only she (and now others) know about. I like how she and Parsee are. Parsee is kind of her superior or a border patrol officer, but they still get along and even though Parsee chastises her it doesn't stop them for looking for exits from the underground. It's cute how she and Parsse try their hardest to hit Reimu only for them to get beaten effortlessly.
With all of the destruction Okuu and Reimu caused I'm sure the tsuchigumo won't be short of work soon.
Also sorry for being late, I was a bit busy with other things as well.

There was this Yamame story that was posted on 4chan a while back that I feel obligated to link here in its ao3 form:https://archiveofourown.org/series/4269622
It's called the Kirisame Magic Shop or KMS, but that's because the setup was Marisa's matchmaking service with Yamame being the character that was chosen by the Anon's in the thread. (Also it's a bit funny, in CDS Parsee tries the same trick she does in KMS, make Reimu sick using a scratch, only for Reimu to be completely unaffected in CDS)

>>18756
I've been trying and failing to find the time to post here, but I'm going to do it now.

I'm a big Yamame fan. I really like her personality in SA and everything she's been in since. I'm not sure if ZUN was trying to do a little subversion by having the first boss in the big bad underground be a pretty nice person, but it worked on me. I had a misconception for a while based on poor recollection that Yamame did try to attack and eat Reimu or Marisa in one route, but when I went back and actually read the dialogue again, I realised that she never actually tried to attack anyone and only retaliated - Even to the point where she said that there was a big party going on in the Ancient Capital and told either protagonist to feel free to join. Her profile mentions as well that she's bright and cheerful and doesn't spread disease unnecessarily, so she's not really much of a jerk either.

Nothing really indicates that she can spread anything other than some sort of influenza-like illness, but because I have to have my cake and eat it too, I always imagine her ability as complete manipulation of diseases and illness, so she could give you all sorts of other illnesses if she felt like it. She rarely does feel like it, though. I wish we had a little more information on what illnesses feel like to her. We know in SoPM that she describes mentally ill humans as 'spicy,' so I wonder if different mental illnesses or other neurological conditions affect tastes. Maybe humans with epilepsy taste sweet? Who knows.

I'm a big fan of her design. The big poofy dress to represent a spider's abdomen is lovely, and I never really noticed how her eyes are segmented until recently. I loved the SFW 'legs' and I espectially loved the CDS bow with the spidery look to it. I like that she has that hair bun, but mostly because I like thinking about hairstyles in general. She's clearly got a lot of hair to work with, so I wonder what other styles she could pull off.

And speaking of CDS, I was a big fan of her involvement. The interactions with Parsee were a joy to see when you consider how rarely some stage neighbours interact with each other. I liked how they had this frienship, although I didn't expect Yamame to be so out of touch with the Ancient Capital. (Side note: still mad about the CDS translator putting 'to the inch' when Yamame was rebuilding the Hakurei Shrine when the JP script had her use a significantly more accurate measurement) I wish I could have more to say as a result of WOoHS, but it was kind of nothing in the end. It did give good fortunes for childbirth though, so that's something.

A lot of what I think about is probably just headcanons. I like the fanon of her having plenty of troublesome sisters who all work construction (as opposed to CDS canon saying that she just directs the vengeful spirits), and I like the idea of her being a seamstress because of her skill with silk.

The KMS has already been mentioned, so I'll mention what I personally consider to be the best Yamame story: https://www.touhou-project.com/underground/res/14818.html
This story is the one that really kickstarted my spider appreciation phase, so I'll always be thankful for that. I loved how Yamame was written in this story so much, and I even really enjoyed the OC characters. The whole thing definitely had an influence on my own writing.

>>18762
>With all of the distruction Okuu and Reimu caused I'm sure the tsuchigume won't be short of work soon.
I'm actually surprised this hasn't been mentioned at all in CDS in either of the last two chapters. Yamame personally went to rebuild the shrine, so fair enough, but the sheer scale of the destruction in the underground was immense and it never even got a proper mention. Ah, well, at least I can still headcanon that the rest of the tsuchigumo worked on that.

>>18773
I didn't think of it at first, but that is weird. I wonder if ZUN specified they rebuilt the shrine or if the mangaka just used them due to not wanting to draw a bunch of spiders.
Although I suppose the vengeful spirits could just be the unpaid, slave labor, or near slave labor, of the shitty third world resort town that is the former capital of hell and the underground.

>>18774

Might also have been to not draw a bunch of Spider OCs. which is truly a tragedy if so.

Yamame's fun. It's interesting to have a world where ze spaiders are the construction experts, a very working-class sort of profession; they're usually associated more with silk and finery through their literal spider-silk. That lends them to this sort of 'savage noble' sort of idea, much like a vampire. see silksong for a classic example of that.

>>18775
I'd agree that it's just because ZUN/Akimaki Yuu didn't want to draw a bunch of spider OCs...if they hadn't already drawn a bunch of kappa OCs earlier in the story.

I totally agree on the funny juxtaposition between thei usually refined idea of silk and spiders and the rougher, working class construction vibe. I find it a really enjoyable place to explore, which is why I like writing and drawing spider OCs a lot. It means Yamame can simulatenously be portrayed as this hard working physical worker, and also as this delicate seamstress web-weaver.

Alright, let's start voting for next week's character now, as usual.
Please remember the >>17770 The Irregular Character Discussions Thread... Er, should it really be mentioned every time like that?

[x] Nagae Iku
[x] Kotohime
[x] Tenkajin Chiyari

A little later this week... Really sorry for not drawing much anymore, have an uninspired Yamame image...

>>18796
[x] Tenkajin Chiyari

[x] Nagae Iku

[x] Kotohime

[x] Kotohime

[x] Tenkajin Chiyari

[X] Kotohime

It's Kotohime! Phantasmagoria of Dim.Dream certainly has an eclectic and eccentric cast, and Kotohime here is quite the character. I mean, what the hell was going through her head when she chose THAT as a civillian disguise? Hey, come to think of it, why does the Eastern Country have a police force at all? Is she really a police officer?

The great thing about PC-98 characters is that they're much more blank slates, so you can really go wild with them without much resistance.

Question for the crowd: Do you prefer 100% straight police force kotohime, slightly quirky but earnest princess doing her best kotohime, or straight-up looney-tunes kotohime? Personally, I enjoy them all, which is why K/Kotohime has bits of all three.

I have to say this - the commonly used translation of th3's endings is a bit inaccurate, so I'm just going to post my own translation of Kotohime's ending here, since it's relevant when it comes to interpreting and utilizing her character. I've excluded the common part of every ending where Yumemi threatens to blow up a four-dimensional positron bomb for brevity's sake.
The original text can be compared here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zj5RAM0tfg4 (starting at 12:14)
Or here: https://oosiro.nomaki.jp/th/ed/th03ed.htm (but this transcript is a bit faulty)

Yumemi: Anyway, I made a promise. I'll grant your wish.
Kotohime: No need.
Yumemi: Eh? Why's that?
Kotohime: It seems that you two really came from another world...
Yumemi: What do you mean?
Kotohime: See, I'm this world's police. I dressed up as a regular normal person and came to investigate you.
Yumemi: You don't look very normal 💦
Kotohime: ...There were many suspicious people here anyway.
Yumemi: And who would that be? 💦
Kotohime: People from other worlds are outside my jurisdiction.
Yumemi: Uh, I suppose.
Kotohime: Anyhow, it's best for you to leave this world immediately.
Yumemi: What's with this attitude 💢 I'm telling you I can grant your wish!
Kotohime: I don't think you'd be able to do much either way.
Yumemi: Don't underestimate the power of our science 💢 I can even blow up the entire Earth!
Kotohime: Well, do it ♥️
Yumemi: No, er, that was jut an example...
Kotohime: I was joking. But, if you insist, I'll let you grant my wish.
Kotohime: Basically, I'd like to see that shrine maiden I met on the way here again.
Yumemi: Hm? Well, that's a very easy task... But are you really a police officer?
Kotohime: Uh, I suppose.
Yumemi: Alright, we're going to bring you the shrine maiden.
Yumemi: Well, let's meet again some other day.
Later.....
Kotohime: I was just saying, but...
Reimu: Hey, you! Why did you wish for that?! 💢 I haven't done anything!
Kotohime: Well, there are hardly any criminals around, and we've got all these cages, so why not put you there...
Reimu: Hey, hey, hey, let me go this instant! 💢
Kotohime: Mm, when I get enough of it ♥️
Reimu: What did I dooooooo... 💦

The wiki seems to describe her as if she's primarily a princess (well, an お姫様, a young noblewoman), but in her ending (>>18805), she says in pretty clear terms that it's her idea of an unassuming disguise for going undercover to investigate the ruins. Of course, considering her omake profile (available on the wiki), it could have been a lie, maybe she's a noblewoman, but it's still something to consider.
I'm inclined to believe that it's true, and that she really is a police officer, originally from... er, the outside world, or something like that. I like to imagine that she was quite a nuisance due to her eccentricities, so her higher-ups transferred her to an extremely remote area to get rid of the trouble of keeping her around, and eventually, because no crime happened there and she had nothing to do, she was forgotten and got spirited away to the Eastern Country without noticing it. I think it's a pretty funny idea. In >>18804's terms, I guess that's somehow all three as well, in its own way?

But however you see her, she's probably the easiest old work character to integrate into modern-style Touhou, isn't she? She can be pretty much just a specific brand of strange person from the humans' village, so if you don't want to make up an original character for such a role, you can introduce her quite comfortably.

I like to imagine that Kotohime is more of a LARPer than a legitimate police officer. Like a kooky noblewoman who decided to appoint herself the role, and nobody could tell her no. I didn't know that she was supposed to be in disguise during PoDD though, that's interesting. I always figured she got bored after PoDD and found some other random thing to do, but maybe she was more serious about it than I thought.

Well, that wasn't much, but it's not really a problem. I imagine it's the contest (our congratulations to the winners!). But if it's Kotohime's fault, I'll have to see her about her behaviour.
Let's vote for the next week's discussion subject.

[x] Nagae Iku
[x] Yomotsu Hisami
[x] Tenkajin Chiyari

[x] Tenkajin Chiyari

[x] Nagae Iku

Also, Didn't Hisami already got discussions in the previous threads?

[X] - Nagae Iku
Funny oarfish lady

[x] Nagae Iku

[x] Nagae Iku

>>18844
>Also, Didn't Hisami already got discussions in the previous threads?
Nope

[x] Nagae Iku

Flamenco!

[x] Yomotsu Hisami

Iku surely wins, but I'll simply register my vote for the sex creature

[x] Yomotsu Hisami

Grape.

Well, it seems that Nagae Iku is the discussion subject this week. Good with weather, good with people - at least that's what her ability of reading the atmosphere seems to imply. But maybe it's just meteorology? She's doesn't seem to be the only messenger of the Dragon Palace... Do you think they're all oarfish, or is she the only ryuuguunotsukai that's a ryuuguunotsukai?

Iku isn't a 2hu I think a lot about, but I'll try my best. She doesn't appear a lot, probably due to how lazy and content she is, as her profile in SWR states. Usually I see her paired with Tenshi due to the Hinawai family being her superiors.
I get the impression that she lives a very relaxed life above the clouds, communing with the Dragon God and not doing much else, but according to her appearance in Grimoire of Usami she's actually quite busy, I imagine it's due to the trouble Tenshi causes.
I like the fact that despite being an elegant woman, one of her techniques is infusing her body with lightning and just throwing herself at you. That mix of elegance and barbarism is always nice, despite the fact her feet never touch the ground. I get the impression she's a skilled hand-to-hand combatant when she goes all out.
Other than that I think the reason her species, Oarfish, are used as messengers is due to their adaptability. Perhaps the dragon god is a creature that is physically and/or spiritually hard to communicate with, instead of just reclusive, so the adaptable Oarfish take on physiological traits that allow them to better serve and understand their master.. Something ZUN brought up in her WOotHS comment. Of course this has a double meaning with her ability to read the atmosphere, not only can she read literal atmospherics, but she has a good read of people and the attitude of the room, allowing her to act accordingly.

>>18852
>Perhaps the dragon god is a creature that is physically and/or spiritually hard to communicate with, instead of just reclusive, so the adaptable Oarfish take on physiological traits that allow them to better serve and understand their master..
That's a pretty evocative idea, I wonder if there are any fanworks focused on the Dragon God. It's basically uncharted territory as far as I know.
I wonder what other oarfish youkai are like, too. Iku can't be the only one of her kind, so it would be pretty interesting to explore the species.

Unrelated, but I like how she's frequently depicted soaring through a vast blue sky in fanart. It's so romantic...

>>18853
I like the idea of the Dragon God being something hard to communicate with because then he/it can still be active in the story, but at the same time distant, only able to communicate through his direct servants who themselves are merely better suited to interpret what he says.
I'm a big fan of her being present against the sky as well. Combined with Iku's ability and her service to the Dragon God, it gives me the idea of him being hard to communicate with because he became something akin to the environment of Gensokyo, so the Oarfish have to determine what he's trying to communicate by reading the weather. Then, when people talk about the dragon palace, they're more referring to the Dragon God's estate, which he can't physically be at anymore due to physically being the environment of Gensokyo.

>>18851
But to answer the question of the week, yes I think all the messengers are Oar fish, but that's because I like the idea of the Oar fish having some specialty that's needed by the palace.

Iku is one of those characters who often exists to facilitate another character. In this case, she's around to prove that Tenshi's antics aren't going unnoticed, and are often quite foolish.

With that said, there's some fun things there, though I would say Iku has some of the most 'anti-canon' common fanons. The whole 'spouse-hunting veils' thing was something iku disparaged, but it's lead to her being seen as a husband-hunter herself. And likewise, it's often taken that despite having the ability to read the weather, she's actually terrible at reading the mood. Like, there's a fifty-percent chance whatever canon details are given about her get 100% reversed on her, and I just think that's funny.

That aside, I think she works great as a foil to Tenshi. She very much has this perfect 'the boss's daughter is trouble but she's not a problem I can fix so just gotta knuckle under' vibe. And I wonder at times if they'd be happier in each other's positions; tenshi being able to roam the world with less restrictions, and iku not having to chase after dumb celestial brats.

>>18854
I suspect that the reason oar fish are seen as messengers is because of japanese mythology. Oarfish live extremely deep in the ocean, and only come to the surface when they're going to die. And they swim vertically, of all things.

They're often seen as harbingers of doom in japan. Because I mean, come on, silvery serpentine creature rises to the surface, hangs straight-up like on an invisible fishing hook underwater, and then dies not long after? if you're an ancient japanese fisherman and see that shit, you're officially moving careers to ancient japanese farmer from then on. Likewise we can see Iku trying to warn people about the incoming earthquakes.

I feel like Iku being the ever-aggrieved babysitter of Tenshi is her lot for the moment...but also, if she and Tenshi were to suddenly separate, Iku would be happier... for a time.

I think she'd start to feel like Squidward in the "Squidville" episode. Where at first she's pretty happy, but then her life slowly drains out to nothing but a dull, repetitive tedium.

Because Tenshi, for all the trouble she causes, definitely livens up her life. Iku may never have even gone to Gensokyo if Tenshi hadn't caused trouble, and even if she did... Iku wouldn't have stuck around and actually interacted with people.

All at the whims of this spoiled Celestial daughter...

>>18857
That makes sense, Oarfish are also scaleless which certainly gives them a mythological feel.
Although funnily enough, the dragon palace isn't on the sea floor but the moon. So the Oarfish going to the surface probably weren't coming from the dragon palace, but going towards it. I guess they ones that died are the ones who proved unworthy or unable to adapt to the position they aspired to be as the Dragon God's servants.
Either way there's some irony there where Oarfish still warn people about earthquakes, just not the Oarfish humans normally expect. That thought gives me the image of human-form Oarfish like Iku who act and deliver messages on their master's behalf in the outside world.
But on her personality, even when she disparages people in SRW, she disparages them for their shitty personalities and things that are their fault. Yuyuko being vague and hard to understand, Yukari threatening people even in defeat, Suika who doesn't take other people into account, how Remilia is too self centered. and how Reimu never acknowledges how much other people worry about her.
So she highly values respect and manners, she even says so herself in her versus script dialogue.

Week's up and it's votes... How about...

[x] Hoshiguma Yuugi
[x] Yomotsu Hisami
[x] Tenkajin Chiyari

[x] Hoshiguma Yuugi
Oni love, Oni life.

[x] Yomotsu Hisami

[x] Yomotsu Hisami

[x] Yomotsu Hisami

[x] Hoshiguma Yuugi

This is my oni chance (this week, at least...)

[x] Yomotsu Hisami

[x] Yomotsu Hisami

Grape

The people have chosen Yomotsu Hisami!
She's surprisingly beautiful for a yomotsu-shikome - unless that flower-veil is covering something up. Seems to do her job pretty well, unless she doesn't want to do it well. But why do people need to be lured into Hell in the first place?
By the way, there are grapes, but no bamboo shoots...

>>18870
Ah, Hisami. What a sense of deja vu this is.Two years ago, UDoALG had just launched and the previous character discussion thread landed on her via dice roll. My post in that thread essentially said that I had nothing to say about her because she had little character of her own and what was there essentially just revolved around Zanmu. Any stories I could find featuring her at the time were yuri (and usually just smut light on character work), and what little else there was didn't particularly inspire any feelings in me.

In my own words:
>So, yeah. Not much to say on that front. She's the weakest of the UDoALG cast because she's a character who entirely revolves around another. I'd have rather talked about any of the others.

Here we are, two years later, and...Nope, nothing's really changed. She never got a manga cameo and the only thing she's shown up in since is WOoHS, which doesn't really provide much except for mentioning that she's easy to distract with food like grapes or bamboo shoots to make a quick getaway. That'd be good for a quick gag, I guess. Still not much to build a character around. Biten got a manga chapter at least (Enoko and Chiyari didn't get much either though). I still feel that any story that substantially features her would have to be a story that substantially features Zanmu, and at that point it'd probably be more of a Zanmu story than a Hisami story, because the majority of Hisami's actions would inevitably be to inspire some particular feelings in Zanmu.

>>18871
I guess there is that mythological connection with Izanami and dosojins in general, so I guess you might be able to do something with, Nareko and Chimata, but yeah she's very Zanmu-centric and unlike a lot of other characters like that she doesn't have the benefit of two decades worth of material, she's very new and like the fandom ZUN has his preferred set of 2hus he likes to have reappear so it's unclear when she'll appear again.
But I feel like that's all there really is to say on the matter.

There's not alot of stuff I have to say about Hisami, but the most I have is the concept of her ability to never let things escape her grasp emphasizes how her relationships are parasitic.
Aside from that, I don't know how I'd use Hisami in a story. Yes There's Zamnu but there's so little about Hisami that I feel like the most that can be said about her is her servitude to Zamnu. Its kinda ironic cause I've seen more fanworks involving Ariya and Yuiman, characters that debuted 3 months ago than a character who existed for 2 years.

>>18871
>Two years ago, UDoALG had just launched and the previous character discussion thread landed on her via dice roll.
Damn, I should have checked more thoroughly, since I didn't want to repeat previous characters, but she never got a header post and was rerolled after a bunch of people wrote that they have nothing to say about her, so I guess it's fine.

Not to be trife, but if people are still saying that they don't have much to say about her, does that mean she has to get rerolled again?

>>18875
Well four people voted for her, presumably they have something to say about her.
I didn't vote for her but I still gave my thoughts, no matter how little they are.

HISAMI...

First of all, what a funny design. Grapes, of all things. Apparently its linked to how Izanagi threw his headdress down and it became grapes, which stopped the pursuing Yomotsu-Shikome? Somehow? Anyway, did you know that they've been growing grapes in Japan since around 700 AD? I thought they were like, a European exclusive thing. Apparantly Japanese grape varieties are quite delicious, too! They're super big, and they're normally eaten after peeling the skin off (which with their varieties is easy to do).

Anyways, uh, the Touhou character. I have to admit that they're not the most inspiring to me personally. I suppose you could have her be some kind of 'hell employment/immigration manager', where she 'drags' people/yokai/gods/whatever to hell by promising them employment there? or you could have her be some kind of recurring, terminator type antagonist that keeps coming back. That'd be funny, I think.

Anyway, her origin as a Yomotsu-shikome... They're mentioned as inhabitants of Yomi, which IIRC was the Shinto land of the dead before Buddhist ideas of the afterlife were accepted. Are they a specific subspecies of youkai hag or is it a role one can be trained or selected for? Is the reason that she's beautiful because they couldn't find any ugly hags for the job anymore?

To finish, here's an interesting paper on Yomi. I couldn't find any specific studies or folklore tales about Yomotsu-Shikome, sadly.

https://dl.ndl.go.jp/view/prepareDownload?contentNo=1&itemId=info%3Andljp%2Fpid%2F9591326

Well, there are some girls there ultimately isn't much to say about! (Though she does seem to have a fair bit of fans... Maybe they just like her for her appearance.)
Either way, let's vote for the upcoming week's character.

[x] Hochiguma Yuugi
[x] Letty Whiterock
[x] Tenkajin Chiyari

[x] Hochiguma Yuugi

whoops i typoed

>>18896
That's fine. We all make mistakes!

Tenkijin Chiyari

>Maybe they just like her for her appearance.
(You) are not that shallow, are you? Maybe I shouldn't throw stones from a glass house...

[x] Hochiguma Yuugi
New fumbo just dropped.

[x] Letty Whiterock

[x] Letty Whiterock

[x] Hochiguma Yuugi

[X] Letty Whiterock

Let's give the often-overlooked snow lady some love!

[X] Letty Whiterock

Let's discuss Letty Whiterock this week. Winter's just begun, so it's only appropriate.
You know, for a yuki-onna, she's surprisingly western-styled. I really wonder why... She's also apparently much stronger than she appears in Perfect Cherry Blossom - that's what ZUN said anyway, that her full power could cause an incident. That might be a fun premise for a fanwork. Though, regardless of her strength, would she even want to do that?

>>18905
Yeah, I wonder how strong she is, she also alludes to herself being strong when Aya interviews her during the events of PCB, later published in BAiJR.
>https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Bohemian_Archive_in_Japanese_Red/Letty
>Oh, that's a good idea. Well, that's what I'd like to say, but I manipulate the cold. Don't confuse it with manipulating cold air like a certain fairy.
>Those fairies are just minor anomalies of nature. I, on the other hand, am a great youkai that lives in nature. When it's chilly out, making it even chillier is my greatest joy.
This actually is a pretty notable comment, since before this and POFV (released 3 day apart,) what Cirno was was kept more ambiguous. In PCB she's an ice youkai and in EoSD she's an icy fairy of the lake. Of course the lore around fairies back then wasn't very developed either, but now-a-days it looks like they might have more in common with gods, and youkai-like fairies like Luna and maybe Cirno are the exception or anomalies.
Although in that same vain, the part where she downplays Cirno in the interviews is funny in a post-HSiFS and fairy-manga world. Despite her dismissal of Cirno, the 9 herself does apparently have something special about her.
Unlike the mundane Letty who despite ZUN's claim way back that she's actually pretty strong. It sort of gives me an image of Letty as this stuck up person who's already made it, looking down at an up and coming youth who has more potential than her.

For fanwork Letty's the only one that's notable off the top of my head is the mysterious and reliable big sister from Advent Cirno. Although for what motive I she could have for an incident, I'm drawing blanks. She doesn't have much on her as a character and she seems pretty sedate, non-confrontational, calm even if a bit proud. Although I'm sure some particular motive could be given to her, I guess the most trite one would be romance.
But off the top of my head I know they Yuuki-ona also have a similar type of icicle woman youkai they're related to. But in general, I think a lot of the stronger versions of her, have a lot of overlap with the more calm Yuuka's, down to an antagonistic relationship to Cirno. At the same time, Yuuka feels more versatile since the garden of the sun and her house feel like they could easily tie into other things.
Compared to Letty who's just a Cirno character, even then Cirno has a way stronger supporting cast now. Letty didn't make it that much in the team 9 days, but now they Cirno has actual friends and team 9 isn't needed to be her supporting cast, it feels like Letty is left even more by the way side.

>>18906
>But off the top of my head I know they Yuuki-ona also have a similar type of icicle woman youkai they're related to.
Ah, tsurara-onna! Though it's really more of a folk tale than any actual fully realised youkai. In bishoujo works about folk tale creatures, she does get treated as a separate species sometimes, but from reading about her, I don't get the impression that it was anything more than a series of similar folk tales. Maybe variations of the yuki-onna myth or something.

>>18907
Yep, that's what I was thinking of. It gives her someone else to be proud towards.
>I manipulate the cold, not ice. Don't confuse it with manipulating cold air like a certain icicle woman.
Sort of like the Kappa-Yamawaro conflict but it literally consists of two women who are very similar. Although it's nothing more than a bit piece.

A character that's based on a very popular yokai, and yet only achieves middling popularity.

Being a 'seasonal' character, she embodies aspects of her season, Winter. Mostly she seems to embody snow and snowstorms: while in the moment, snow cn severely hinder movement and even trap people in places, once it gets warm enough it all just melt away. As well as this, Winter snowstorms and cold snaps can come suddenly and are very deadly... but obviously only happen in Winter.

She's actually been seen active outside of winter, namely in Hopeless Masquerade. Makes you wonder what she does in her downtiem other than hibernate. I wonder if she's acquainted with the Grassroots Network? Maybe she's not interested in them because she's already 'made'... She's seen in the Mausoleum in Hopeless Masquerade with Cirno, the Three Fairies, Medicine and Yuuka, but just as background extras.

As other people have said, there's some potential with something between Cirno and her. Maybe where she realises that the little upstart Cirno isn't actually all talk? Or maybe some kind of horror story, where she ambushes some traveller, stalking them as they try to escape her snowstorm, or maybe a story using the romantic aspects of the Yuki-Onna? Who knows, maybe she's surprisingly warm.

As an aside, what body type do you think she has? She seems to be adult sized (or at least Yuuka sized) in Hopeless Masquerade, and I've only seen one instance of loli Letty where her powerlevel and size were directly linked to how cold she was. There's a surprising amount of plump Letty stuff, which doesn't make much sense considering the original legend focused on teh Yuki-Onna snow woman appearing to be unsuitably prepared for the winter cold... having a thick layer of blubber is like being prepared fro the cold, right?... Me personally, I imagine her as beautiful and calm, but also very distant ("cold", get it? She's "cold". Maybe even to the point of being an "Ice Queen"!) a bit spindly, and ready to strike out given an opportunity. She's also apparently based on an Agatha Christie character, so you could take some inspiration from there. Letty in a murder mystery!?

Letty sure is a character that exists in Touhou. She leaves last impressions to the fandom, giving her notable personality traits such as: fat

and cold

I find the most notable thing about her the near complete void of memorability she is. Stage 1 boss are often forgettable but she's used in almost nothing for fan works. The reasoning I've had to think of for this is her lack of any connections to any other character; and than the one she does is Cirno, who you'd probably use in a similar story role if you want a ice power person.

>>18909
>Murder mystery
Cirno is better for this as well since she doesn't die when she is killed.