Let's attempt this resurrection with the help of Kazami Yuuka. She must know a thing or two about that, having been in both the PC98 run and the Windows revival, and even Seihou project as well! Like many Touhou characters, especially early ones, she's quite a vague figure, so there are many ways to interpret her, many ways to write her, many roles to give her in a story. But what you think about her in-game appearances? What do you think about her portrayal in fanworks? Do you have any ideas yourself?
Also, an organisational question: should characters be selected randomly, or should I just pick them myself?

>>18277
Most powerful youkai have strong characterizations, but Yuuka is left pretty vague. That means when I have a spot in a story than needs a generic powerful youkai that won't bring in lots of unwanted baggage, I tend to reach for Yuuka to fill that role.

>>18277
Yuuka is a nice, pleasant character. Not one of my favourites, but good to think about every once in a while. In the omikuji book, ZUN said that she's basically a guest character from the old works, that probably helps.
She fits the archetype of an old and powerful youkai, but not in a pompous way. She's a somewhat typical cheerful and carefree bully, there might even be something innocent to her threats, though not childish. Violence, destruction, it's all a bit of light-hearted fun for her, isn't it? Might also be an expression of her love for solitude, but I don't think it's as hateful as it seems. Hopefully she will continue to spend this eternity joyfully alone.
I also like her appearance, there's something light and cheery but calm and subdued about it. Also, remarkably for Touhou, she more or less feels like a real girl, visually speaking. It must be the hairstyle change — commonplace in real life, but kind of rare in fiction, unless it's a plot device. Her sleeping outfit is a bit whimsical, but otherwise, she's quite believable. She even reuses clothes in different outfits! Her vest and tie seem to be the same in Seihou and th9. It's great.
>>18280
Handy, isn't it, early Touhou vagueness. I feel like many fanworks use her that way, actually.

>>18277
I like when Yuuka has a mellow attitude. Despite her sadism she's a person who enjoys living a quiet lief away from trouble and even if she doesn't have any affinity for humans, she won't go out of her way to bother them.
Even if she is teases the people she runs across, she's careful about it and doesn't start trouble. I imagine she has a very ethereal beauty to her, with her being a person who enjoys the little things in life and long quiet days.

>>18277
Yuuka probably one the only Touhou characters I can think of that most depictions of her just kind of work. Like she can be full on sadistic monster, to not really well understood nice lady and anything between; and it really doesn't feel like a wrong version of her character.

There's can be a bit of fun when she shows up in some fan work, since you're not really sure how she'll be portrayed for a least a little bit.

>>18277
I think Yuuka's lack of appearances has actually helped her longevity in the fandom. She's remained pleasantly undisturbed, so people are free to approach her however they want. Want to pull in the way she acted in PC-98? Sure, go ahead. She's still plenty belligerent in PoFV. Want to make her more misunderstood and nicer? That's fine, just say that she was teasing specific characters, or that it was a strange day because of all the blooming flowers. Anything goes with her and none of it really feels wrong since there's little to work off of.
I'm a big fan of writing her as a character who's metaphorically in retirement. She's happy to just chill out and do whatever she wants, from strolling the Garden of the Sun to visiting the flower shop in the human village whenever she wants, regardless of what anything thinks. She's got a lot of patience and you'd have to actively work at it for a while to break it, but if you do, you're not going to like what you find.
There's no real call for this anywhere in canon except perhaps the fact that she refuses to properly fight the protagonist in LLS until she's gotten dressed, but I really like to see focus on her elegance. Especially when you then juxtapose it to when she loses her temper and gets into the violence.
I do like when she isn't outwardly threatening, or at least when it seems like it's unintentional. Making certain actions of her feel subtly threatening is a lot more fun to me.
P.S I get to ramble about flowers whenever I write her, and I love doing that.
P.P.S For me it's the green eyes and the hair over the eye. I love all her outfits equally.
P.P.P.S I really love her name. It seems to flow off the tongue great. Ka-za-mi Yuu-ka. It's just the right amount of hard and soft syllables.

>>18289
>P.P.P.S I really love her name. It seems to flow off the tongue great. Ka-za-mi Yuu-ka. It's just the right amount of hard and soft syllables.
Oh yeah! Flows well. I love cases when 風 is read as kaza as well. Just feels good phonetically! Is it fitting for her? I dunno, it's quite a simple, grounded name, actually, even if the spelling of the given name is a bit unusual. Is that Yuuka-like?

Something I feel that's worth mentioning with Kazami Yuuka specifically is that I saw a pixiv post that compared five different common depictions of her, translated now here on danbooru: https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/9053765?q=parent%3A9053765

And it really does attest to Yuuka's versatility that there's five measurably different styles of depictions she gets, even if they overlap at times.

I have something I like to call the Waluigi theory, where franchises actually thrive when there's a little bit of something vague enough to allow just about anything to fill it's place, something for fanworks to thrive in. Of course Touhou in general has always been S-tier in interpretation potential, but Kazami Yuuka does stand out as a particularly vague one.

>>18277
>Also, an organisational question: should characters be selected randomly, or should I just pick them myself?
Actually, wild thought; would it be worth pre-selecting say a trio each week (random or pre-picked), and then having the readers vote for one of them? It might be a good way to encourage people to keep engaged with the thread.

>>18296
Oh, neat analysis in the pictures, with different flavours of portraying an refined and powerful character. Though I don't think I've seen the "genuine shoujo type" anywhere, it feels a little off... The "gap moe tender type" is the closest to my own perception, as I usually gravitate towards more light-hearted tones, though I see her as more youthful and a little more energetic.

>Actually, wild thought; would it be worth pre-selecting say a trio each week (random or pre-picked), and then having the readers vote for one of them? It might be a good way to encourage people to keep engaged with the thread.
Hm! I don't mind, it would be a little exciting, though I feel like winning the vote should result in something more than just being the week's subject of discussion... But maybe it's enough.

>>18296

This is the main reason I enjoyed Yuuka's arc in Touhou Mystia's Izakaya. They choose to go with a gentle, cute-as-a-button Yuuka, yet her punishment spellcard for fucking up her order is just blasting the dinning area clean in half and then walking out, as calm as you please. Most punishment spellcards are some small, trivial thing you can work around, but Yuuka demands a level of respect not seen with any of the other customers. It really highlights the duality of her nature, and of nature in general, so well.

>>>>18321

Is that really what she does? Man, I gotta get around to playing the DLC sometime, that's awesome.

>>18307
Yeah, genuine shojo seems a bit rare. I tend to like silent appreciator and gap more. The only one I'd have to say I dislike is the final boss type.
Power wanking characters to be even stronger or all powerful or whatever just isn't appealing to me.
The same artist did patchouli as well which seems pretty neat, although that wasn't upload to dambooru. Really I feel like there are so many flavors of each character to play around with.

>>18321
Is it framed as comedic or more scary-like? Or is it just mundane?

>>18325
I found a clip of it. https://youtu.be/s615ej7XcWM?si=v5glGFbsNF7wq8OB&t=144
She really just chooses violence and cuts your customer possibilities in half. That's amazing.

>>18329
>Dislikes: Filling, Japanese, salty, hot
>Japanese
Lol, lmao even. You serve her Japanese food one time and they kill half your guests and wrecks half of your Izakaya.
I wonder if she enjoys Greek?

>>18336
>Dislikes: Filling, Japanese, salty, hot
>not spicy
ez

>>18329
Oh, that's pretty funny. I don't really know that game well, but it seems not even like demanding respect per se, like >>18321 said, but just something she thinks is natural to do in such a situation. Something about whimsical blue-and-orange youkai morality, a result of their power and longevity... It's cute, actually. I have to admit that it's cute.

>>18296
The big one for me is the Elegant Appreciator type. I love it when she's classy. Stuff like the Final Boss type and the Sadistic type really don't do much for me. It's just too obvious and it feels like it reduces her potential as a character. If you have that version in a story, there doesn't seem to be much different you can do or show off with her personality.
>>18324
>Patchouli
Damn, my anemic magician looks like THIS!??

>>18324
>The same artist did patchouli as well which seems pretty neat, although that wasn't upload to dambooru.
Actually, the Patchouli ones are on Danbooru as well, as well as ones for Yukari and Sakuya. It's just that the ones for Yuuka are the only ones that have been translated yet. They're collected in this pool: https://danbooru.donmai.us/pools/25196

>>18343
True, but the Patchouli and Sakuya ones were uploaded 19 hours ago, so they weren't on there when that post was made.

Aside from that, what made so many artists draw Yuuka with pantyhose? Was it just one of those things were people just felt like it fit? You see the same with Colorswapped Yuuka Raiko too.

>>18344
Something about serious reserved girls wearing tights, probably. When it comes to anime characters, more reserved and mature or ladylike girls are often drawn wearing tights, especially with uniforms. It's not a universal rule, but you see it often enough for it to become noticeable as a tendency. She is also drawn that way in the background of Hopeless Masquerade, and also in the Kasen manga, I believe. Though that's a symptom rather than the cause.
I have to say I don't really like it! It's a cute look, but not very cohesive. Her outfit has a breezy summery feeling that black tights don't fit very well into.

>>18345
I can't say I've paid too much attention to leggings in general unless it's directly emphasised, but now that you've pointed it out, I think I prefer legging-less, too. It's a bit of a colour clash from the rest of her palette, which is quite vibrant.

While we're discussing her personality type, what sort of relationship do you like her to have with the fairies and characters like Wriggle? Not like they interact in canon, of course, but I've seen everything from "loving mom type" to "scary lady who really means no harm despite everyone hating her" to "oh look, free targets".

To continue >>18345... I want to elaborate a bit on Yuuka's th9 clothes, I like them a lot. The trousers are good too, but I prefer A-line skirts above all.
Even though I hate the combination of a red skirt and vest with a yellow necktie on Reimu, Yuuka, whose outfit is superficially similar and has the same colours, doesn't have the same problem to me. Obviously, the difference in clothing items plays a part too, but the warm and sunny feel the colour combination has is much more fitting for the sunflower-themed girl. Her bright green hair also balances out the warm tones, being somewhat cooler, so it doesn't become unpleasant. It's like a cold wind on a hot day — though maybe I'm just making the comparison because such a wind is blowing in my face right now... The tartan print that the reds come with is quite stylish, too. It's what adds that summer feeling, it's almost like a country lolita outfit, but not exactly, as it's more casual. And those decorative buttons, even though they're often overlooked, really elevate her charm and fit her theme and interests very well.
Also, to continue >>18281, sorry, I just love the way ZUN dresses her: notice how it's mainly her shirts that change every time. Her shirt is noticeably different in every appearance, and that really is how people normally dress in real life! For example, with men's suits and the like, the shirts are more or less expendable, and it's the jacket and the trousers that are made to last, and while I don't think Yuuka necessarily views her shirts like that, as they would have been more plain then, she changes them much more easily. Her vest and trousers between th4 and th5 look more like the same garments -— I like to imagine that the minor differences were her additions, it wouldn't be that unusual for her to make and adjust her own clothes. Her vest had yellow embroidery in th4, but it disappeared in th5, by the way. It's a little funny, it's as if she didn't like it and ended up pulling it out.
Those clothing details are mainly what makes me see her as more youthful. Her fashion sense doesn't read as elegant or ladylike, if taken at face value. It's bright, comfortable and casual, maybe even with a slight pastoral feel. It may even be made to be easily washable if she actually does gardening dressed like that. I think she does, maybe not in the skirt (I don't think it would have had the decorative buttons in that case), but in the trousers, for sure.

To transition into replying
>>18346
>what sort of relationship do you like her to have with the fairies and characters like Wriggle? Not like they interact in canon, of course, but I've seen everything from "loving mom type" to "scary lady who really means no harm despite everyone hating her" to "oh look, free targets".
Basically, because of this casual feel I get from her, she's just a cheerful gardening enthusiast to me. I don't think she's a threat to the fairies as long as they don't mess with her work. I guess they'd treat her like you would your neighbours, who let you play in their yard as long as you don't break anything. And because even things like dying aren't a big deal to fairies, I don't think they'd be that scared.
Wriggle might have some sort of peace treaty with Yuuka. Like, the flowers get to be pest-free, and the bugs get to live, something like that. Maybe they could have been rivals in the past, haha. Not in a serious way.

>>18347
>Wriggle might have some sort of peace treaty with Yuuka. Like, the flowers get to be pest-free, and the bugs get to live, something like that.
It's important to remember that, while some insects are pests to plants, many plants are also dependent on insect pollinators to reproduce and survive as a species. Therefore, I don't think their relationship necessarily has to be an antagonistic one.

>>18348
True! But the pests, and stuff... It's at least somewhat rocky, I think

I imagine a deal like “keep the good bugs in and the bad bugs out of the garden of the sun, and I won’t harm any of them” would be a worthy trade.

I've been thinking about the proposal of having everyone vote for a character out of a pre-selected trio. It's worth a try, at least as an experiment! Through the weekend, we can vote for the next discussion subject. So, let's say, to keep it fresh and balanced...
[X] Komano Aunn
[X] Mystia Lorelei
[X] Shinki
Pick whichever you want to hear everyone talk about next week! I'll collect the votes by the end of sunday.

Also, to make it a little more exciting... If a week's discussion goes well and people share something evocative or fun, I will do a little doodle of the discussion subject. Many of the girls enjoy posing for art as well, so let's entertain it.

>>18367
[X] Komano Aunn

>>18367
[X] Mystia Lorelei

birb

>>18367

[x] Shinki

Verified MILF

>>18367
[X] Shinki
If you ask me. We haven't had any oldwork characters, so why not?

[x] Shinki

[X] Aunn

[X] Mystia Lorelei

As much as I love Aunn, Mystia's someone a close friend loves, so I'm pickin' her.

>>18376
Altruistic

Well, that worked out. The vote ends now, then. Thank you for engaging! It seems that Shinki won, though by a small margin. She's a good choice, there haven't been any old work-exclusive characters up for discussion yet, actually.
Early Touhou, especially in the 90s, had a lot of freedom for interpretation. Shinki is a popular and beloved character, but due to that vague quality, fans end up seeing her in starkly different ways a lot of the time. What's she like to you? What do you think Makai, the world of her creation is like, and why could she have created it? A lot of fan works pair her up with Alice as a mother-daughter duo, but what do you think their relationship is really like? (And what's the deal with Byakuren? You must have seen the spellcards!)

>>18379
PC-98, didn't read.

Shinki and her lot in Makai seem to be Abrahamic demons, what with them being literally called demons, and Shinki having the characteristic 6 wings of a seraphim, implying she may be a fallen one. Seraphim are the highest order of angel, which explains her great power - I don't recall a single Ars Goetia demon capable of creating their own realms, and God knows how many legions of demons must reside in Makai! (Although they all seem to be cute girls in fashionable dresses... They do say that devils are charmers!)

Seraphim are said to surround the throne of God, singing constant praise to Him. would this mean that Shinki, as a fallen seraphim, has a perfect singing voice? maybe she could hold a concert in Makai. I bet she could do some gnarly scream vocals!

I will say, when interpreting demons, I'm more fond of the brutal and unrelenting evil of the old mesopotamian gods. having them be just another species of earthly youkai - some good, some bad - is disappointing. how would one fit that onto Shinki, though?... I haven't seen any interpretation of her character as such - I suppose it wouldn't fit.

>>18383
My initial assumption was that, just like how Japanese myths, religions in general, and Shintoism aren't 1:1 with Touhou, neither are western ones. Shinki just has traits that got conflated with biblical stuff, like how Makai is called Makai despite not being an after life and not having much to do with the east of Buddhism.
Lucifer/Amano-Kagaseo-no-Mikoto is referenced in Strange and Bright Nature deity as a god/the planet venus so I assume he(but lets be real she, this is Touhou after all) got conflated with Shinki somewhere along the way.
Although I wouldn't be surprised if he and Shinki were former co-workers.

>>18383
They're not so much "Abrahamic" as "occult", which I think is an important distinction to make. Shinki doesn't seem to have any visible role in relation to a superior deity, nor any stake in the fates or souls of anyone outside her own realm. And "demon" is an approximate translation; 魔物 has no particular Abrahamic connotations. Really, somewhat unavoidably, it points first of all towards Buddhist "demons" like oni and whatnot, or simply towards subjects of sorcery and witchcraft, and generalises outwards from there to Western occultism. But not towards wider Abrahamic mythology, because the term used to translate conventional demons and devils of that kind is 悪魔.

So, really, she's more like pic related; a creator entity whose job is (more or less) to bullshit up a material world and keep her creations contained within that world. A little bit like a warden, which is possibly vaguely in fitting with the role of Makai in UFO. And neither good nor evil, except "evil" in the Gnostic sense of not fully measuring up to the standard of a purported "true God", whether such a thing happens to exist or not.

>>18386
True. It is an important distiction! Makai people aren't even "demons" per se — I feel like 魔物, in that context, meant "magical non-human" more than anything. It's interesting how much translations and different connotations can dictate our perceptions.
Though, if you ask me, Shinki being a demiurge-"god" rather than a deity-"god" is more or less intuitive, judging by what she says. Though it's also the way she talks and carries herself. Both her music themes are quite pompous, and she looks quite regal for the most part, but doesn't act that way at all. I feel like that's exemplified by her goofy-ass ponytail. It really doesn't fit her style of dress at all, I really get the impression that she's someone that's... Not even trying to project an image, but someone who stumbles into that image almost by accident, and sees no harm in playing it up from time to time, but doesn't fully commit to it. A proper God would probably either commit to it or do away with it entirely, but a demiurge can afford to be more carefree, I think.

By the way, it's actually why I like connecting her to Alice, even if it doesn't have much basis in the explicit text. Alice is a dollmaker, and so is Shinki, if you think about it. Just on a bigger scale. They're girls who play with shapes. (I don't think she's anything like a mother, though. She strikes me as too careless for that role.)

>>18387
Shinki does give off that feeling, especially with her gullibility. Local woman stumbles into being a god and has no idea how to handle herself, but is nonetheless worshiped by her many adoring creations.
And of course despite those creations liking her, it's not like she has any actual power over them so they just do what they want and go on vacations in other words and cause chaos.

>>18388
I don't think Makai was an accidental creation, though I guess it's not necessarily what you meant here. It's not even that she's confused, I get the impression that she's just having fun at a leisurely pace rather than pursuing goals or caring about power, haha.
By the way, check out this fanart of little Shinki. It's really, really old. https://web.archive.org/web/20060225235019/http://cinki.net:80/chibi.jpg Anyway, she's not a kid character, but she has that whimsical quality, a little bit.

On "gullibility" and that "impostor-god" idea of >>18387 >>18388 - that comes down to approach to PC-98 in general. Thing is, 2-5 games are a farce. Moe farce. Everyone in those games behaves silly, in a hypertrophied moe way, and could be called "gullible". And farce inherently defies internal consistency and ordering into a possible/believable fictional universe. Therefore, if one isn't content with absurdity, one is forced to stray from canon events and somehow "filter" them into something more serious to construct a fictional universe from.
So, applying that approach of mine to Shinki - even if she behaves silly "in absolute terms", she is more serious than anyone else in MS, so by my approach she "should be" serious in my "reconstructed" setting. I suppose it's also possible to interpret her as an impostor-god while taking more serious tone, I just don't like that and don't care about that. That does not mean she must be pompous or something though, she well can look whimsical and not quite regal by human standards. After all, she's a god, she doesn't need to maintain legitimacy of her rule like human powerful, isn't she?
Speaking of divinity:
>a demiurge-"god" rather than a deity-"god"
I do not quite understand what is this supposed to mean in your >>18387 case. In general, though, "demiurge" inherently implies existence of "true" absolute god, which is just, no. Monotheistic worldview is repulsive for me, and attempts to drag Christianity into Touhou are, honestly, especially disgusting. Nothing in Shinki or Makai even really hints at that? Anyway, I like to imagine Makai as alien dimension, wholly separate from our "real" Outside world - while all the other realms of Touhou are derived from Earth and humanity in different ways, Makai is one of manifold other worlds out there, one that had some contact with our world. That bit about Makai from Windows - that Makai has poisonous atmosphere and matter is sentient here (including Byakuren's scroll) ties in nicely here. Therefore, Makai residents are beyond any categories of beings of this world - youkai, god, demon, whatever - and Shinki is "god" only as an epithet, as somebody powerful and revered, unalike to heavenly or earthly gods (well, the word "god" is a very problematic and vague one, isn't it?). Why they have human shapes? Who knows? Memory of past contacts? Curiosity from new ones? A bit of a sampling bias in MS? Deep underlying metaphysical reasons? Illusion created by minds of protagonists unable to perceive their true forms? All of the above?

>>18390
>that "impostor-god" idea
That's not really what I meant? It might be what >>18388 meant, but I said "stumbles into that image almost by accident" to convey that the classic "godly" image others might have of her stems from expectations which come with her status as the creator rather than any real personal quality she might have. I don't percieve her as an impostor, that's too convoluted for my taste.
>I do not quite understand what is this supposed to mean in your case. In general, though, "demiurge" inherently implies existence of "true" absolute god
Uuuuh, I don't think it implies that. I was talking about fantasy character archetypes more than anything, because I don't like dragging abrahamic monotheism into Touhou either. She's just a creator-of-everything rather than a real deity.
>Shinki is "god" only as an epithet, as somebody powerful and revered, unalike to heavenly or earthly gods
Something like that, actually. I do generally have the same view of Makai, I just prefer taking it in a sillier (and maybe a little surreal) direction. Moe-farce, as you have said. That's a good way to describe it, lol. It's not the only way to view the games, and not even the most interesting one, but it's always been pretty intuitive for me, based on the raw source material anyway. You have asked some interesting questions, though! A completely alien world is quite evocative.

>>18390
>>18391

Ya know...both Alice and Shinki do have a unique kind of 'un-earthly' tone to a lot of their various interactions. The idea that Makai is based on the common sense of completely alien worlds definitely has some merit.

It also takes the idea of the air in Makai being poisonous in a more ontological direction, rather than biological, which is super interesting.

>>18393
Ontological posion, huh... I wonder what that's like. It's almost borgesian, which I think is a good fit for Makai.

Alright, since the week is almost up, let's vote for the next discussion subject again. I think we should give the two from last week another chance. There seemed to be interest, and they're nice girls, after all. So, this time, let's choose between the remaining two. The votes from last week carry over — though there was an equal amount either way.
[X] Komano Aunn
[X] Mystia Lorelei

Cycling through groups of three in voted order like that is still an experimental idea, so if you think going with a more traditional three-character vote is better, or have a different idea for picking subjects entirely, I'm open to suggestions.

[X] Mystia Lorelei

[X] Mystia Lorelei
cool girl

[X] Komano Aunn

[X] Mystia Lorelei

[X] Mystia Lorelei

Voting closed, thank you for participating again.
It seems that Mystia Lorelei ended up being this week's choice. She's been running a pretty popular restaurant lately, right? Is that place any good? Hey, is she still doing music? That punk band she was in was pretty out there, but her voice is quite strong, it would be a waste not to continue singing. Anyway, what does everybody think of her?

Before the hot and heavy meta discussion takes off, I just wanted to say Mystia is, without a doubt, the cutest of the birbs.

Thank you.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled discussion.

I actually have a lot of attachment to Mystia. She's far from my favourite character, but, in retrospect, she's always expemplified Touhou to me. Whenever I think of classic Touhou, I think of her. It's probably because she was one of the first Touhou girls I ever saw, back in around 2011. Watching random videos, I stumbled upon one of those silly Touhou animations. The girls in it really amazed me, they were so fantastical, like nothing I had ever seen before. Mystia was the most striking, and really made an impression on me. Even in the animation's simplified style, she was quite decorated, and still felt cohesive despite not having any observable theme. I couldn't recognise her wings as any fantasy creature's or real bird's, I didn't get why she had those strange ears, nor why her hat was so unusual, and why she even wore one, and why it had those wings too, those wings I could not recognise. But even though it was all so strange, it still fit together. She wasn't an eyesore, she actually looked really good, and I didn't even like pink or brown. It was really fascinating to see someone like her, a Touhou girl, for the first time. I didn't immediately become interested in the series, I don't even think it occurred to me to do any research on it, but the image really stuck with me.

Now, nearly fifteen years later, I totally get that feeling I had. Mystia really does have a wonderful design. It doesn't feel stereotypical for a bird character, or a musician character, or anything else she is, which makes it feel very fresh. The colours are also great — not even because they're particularly beautiful by themselves, but because they're very well-balanced. I love how she almost has a sense of volume and texture with the detailing of her dress. There's a lot of fanart out there that accentuates it. I imagine these decorations are quite coarse to the touch, coarse in a way that feels durable. It looks like a very well-made dress. Her long painted nails and earrings are very nice additions too. You don't actually see a lot of nails, earrings or makeup on anime girls, so it's always a treat when it's there. Of course, I love her ears too, their placing has a pleasant sense of attention to detail. Basically, she's great, ZUN truly struck gold with her. It might even be his best design, at least in my opinion.
Of course, having been a Touhou fan for a while now, I know much more about her, and she doesn't entice me as much. I know that she's a cunning little go-getter, a surprisingly good cook and even a part-time guitarist. It's alright, she's a good character with a lot of potential for fun slice-of-life plots. The sense of mystique is just gone now. But she still means a lot, she's THE Touhou girl to me. That impression from my childhood still remains.

Also, I really like her "surname", Lorelei, because it reminds me of the song Lorelei by Madame Edwarda. It might even be a good fit for her. The style doesn't fit Choujuu Gigaku at all — it's not slow, but quite melancholic, and I doubt that Kyouko would even attempt to get poetic — but who knows... Maybe Mystia gets to front sometimes, and her songs might have a more ethereal feel. Deceptively ethereal.

Mystia's character arc reflects the change in Gensokyo over the course of the series - going from just another man-eating youkai to a succesful business owner and musician. We've similarly seen a change in Gensokyo over the years, with less and less references to killing and eating humans and some characters vehemently opposing that youkai kill people. (I'm remembering a scene where Suika is talking to some humans and she says something to this effect, but the exact name of it escapes me...)

This post >>18012 in the irregular discussions thread found that the first reference to a food cart was Tewi's versus dialogue in PoFV. That Tewi was the inspiration for Mystia's cart, which is nowadays inseperable from her character, makes it quite strange that now neither character really has any link or relationship to one another, canon or fanon (at least that I know...)

What kinda lyrics do you think Choujuu Gigaku would have in their songs? They're a rebellious punk band, so an anti-establishment tone is to be expected, but with Gensokyo being the (pseudo)paradise that it is its difficult to come up with anything they'd want to scream and thrash at that isn't sort of shallow. maybe thats the point? Maybe like >>18425 says, the songs fronted by Kyouko are simple, while Mystia are more poetic.

>>18427
>What kinda lyrics do you think Choujuu Gigaku would have in their songs?

The SoPM article about Choujuu Gigaku suggests that Kyouko's rebellious lyrics relate to her frustration with her strict training at Myouren Temple. It's not really made clear whether Mystia also writes lyrics for the band, since only Kyouko is interviewed (the illustration shows Kyouko singing and Mystia playing guitar).

>>18427
>What kinda lyrics do you think Choujuu Gigaku would have in their songs?
Because of Aya's description from the SoPM article,
>From my investigation, what they call a "concert" is just a performance of explosive sounds and screaming about whatever annoys them.
I've always imagined something like London's Burning by The Clash, but worse and done a million times over.

>>18427
>That Tewi was the inspiration for Mystia's cart, which is nowadays inseperable from her character, makes it quite strange that now neither character really has any link or relationship to one another, canon or fanon (at least that I know...)
I know, it's a very odd and random thing in universe. It feels sort of like how Chen is a loan Shark in Mystia's Izakaya. Both are so far removed from the default perception of the characters that it comes off as weird.
For song lyrics, you of course of Kyouko's rebellious singing about life in the temple, I like to also image there's song about conflict between human and Youkai, since there are some anti-establishment types like Aya who want more conflict. I don't doubt there's also songs that are just total messes, pure slop with no direction but which people come to see anyway.
I like to imagine they've also tried different genres of music, even if it's not the punk rock stuff they became famous for. Maybe more traditional rock(?)

>>18428 >>18429
Thanks for the info. As expected, the most the innocent Kyouko can come up with is 'fuck you mom and also society' style lyrics... But what lyrics might you imagine Mystia coming up with? She's clearly much less sheltered, if not more mature. maybe a funny one that seems to be just about innocently cooking for a series of customers at her cart, but if you pay attention she's killing each succesive customer and serving them to the next? Maybe one about her killing and eating people back before she had her cart, sending them blind and mad with her song? Maybe one insulting the Hakurei Shrine Maiden, which they don't play anymore ever since the incident where they played it too loud near the shrine and awoke that selfsame beast?

As an aside, what do people think about Mystia's inclusion in team 9 (Pairing Mystia with Cirno, Daiyousei, Rumia, Wriggle, and other weaker early stage characters)? It doesn't make much sense to me outside of gag manga where nothing's very serious. The characters don't really have much in common other than being early stage bosses. I can understand wriggle since they both live in the same place, and Rumia might be a funny pairing, maybe as a particularly annoying customer... But Cirno? Mystia's a grown woman with a business, and you've got her skulking around with mentally stunted Jill Frost. she sticks out like a sore thumb. Even before Mystia set up her cart, her and Cirno don't seem to have ever met, so thats no excuse either. (I'm referring to the versus scripts for PoFV again, https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Phantasmagoria_of_Flower_View/Story/Mystia%27s_Scenario and https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Phantasmagoria_of_Flower_View/Story/Mystia%27s_Script)

>>18430
I haven't played Mystia's Izakaya, but Chen being a loanshark makes some sense. She's probably been put up to it by Ran or Yukari to get her some experience. Harden the heart of the child against sympathy. She's working at the top rungs of politics, after all. I think I t would be a nice excuse to break Tewi out if you have a Mystia plot, she doesn't really get much attention otherwise.

as for what other genres they might try out... Maybe shoegaze? In terms of physical performance, you expect a lot of movement and energy from singers in rock and punk perfomances, so maybe the contrast of a still shoegaze performance could be good? Maybe some crazy fusion music with the other Gensokyo bands, like the Prismrivers or the Tsukomos. Maybe they could reign in Choujuu Gigaku enough for some symphonic metal!

>>18431
Mystia's inclusion in the Team 9 group was mainly because, around the time IN was first released, she was seen as a rather weak and unimportant character, who was not involved with the greater plot of the game and even seemingly got eaten by Yuyuko in one ending.

I could've sworn there's also a manga panel that shows at least several of the Team 9 members talking with each other at a shrine festival or something like that, but I cannot find it right now. I believe it was in one of the Sangetsusei manga.

>>18431
>As an aside, what do people think about Mystia's inclusion in team 9 (Pairing Mystia with Cirno, Daiyousei, Rumia, Wriggle, and other weaker early stage characters)?
I kind of hate it. Though I strongly dislike the idea of "Team 9" by itself, because it feels disrespectful to the characters to reduce them to "silly kid" type gag fodder, especially when they're not even children, like Wriggle or Mystia. It's not even whether they've interacted in the source material or not, it's just a waste of potential.
>as for what other genres they might try out... Maybe shoegaze?
It sounds a little funny to say, but is sort of on point. Choujuu Gigaku don't seem to be a serious band, they're more like a bunch of youths with access to music equpment and a fair bit of spare time, so anything garagey and grungey would be a good fit. Shoegaze is sort of like that, it often has a handmade feel, from what I know.

>>18431
Not to provide too much spoiler, but it becomes clear during the game that Chen is acting under Yukari's instructions, she's not loansharking on her own initiative. Tewi has a separate role in the game, as an extortionist who causes problems for the izakaya if not paid off.

I think it makes sense for Mystia to hang around with the other small fry youkai. It's not like the movers and shakers of Gensokyo would pay her much mind except as a late-night snack. She exists as a character to populate low-power stories.

>>18431
The Chen thing was before the Ran was revealed to be ex-Yakuza, so it was more unexplainable then. Even the idea of Yukari being the one to head the loan sharks as the leader of the Yakumo corp (or whatever their called) feels a bit out of character for her, but I digress.
When talking about having her appear as friends or alongside the other characters, I don't think team 9 is a good idea for a serious story. Honestly the entire team 9 doesn't really make sense, I can see Cirno Daiyousei (who isn't a character), and Rumia being friends since they're all young and child-like. But Wriggle and Mystia always came across as older to me, including with with the likes of actual children seems a bit silly and to just water down what personality they have.
I've always thought the Grassroots Network were better as Mystia and Wriggle's friends anyways, they're also weak-ish, friendly-ish, and I can see them interacting pretty easily. They're really just suprior in every way to team nine, and even if you don't want to use them you still have Kogasa, the Prismriver Sisters, and the Tsukumo sisters.

Tbh, I've noticed that a lot of fanworks ignore Mystia's opportunistic and scheming qualities. I mean, she's no mastermind, but, like, she makes people go blind and then essentially makes them pay for curing that blindness, that's crafty. Almost makes you imagine what kind of dishonest but petty moneymaking schemes other youkai come up with. (though maybe it comes up often and i just haven't seen it)

>>18442

Oh for sure, opportunities abound in Gensokyo for those willing to set morals aside.

Yamame and Eirin running a disease causing/curing racket.

Fairies selling their smelly, used undergarments to individuals of ill-repute since they re-spawn with new clothes.

Moriyas committing faith fraud by 'purifying' the very land Suwako cursed.

Rest assured; there's money to be had and suckers to be scammed wherever you look. Mystia having a night-blindness curing side hustle is probably par for the course considering killing people has fallen out of fashion in modern Gensokyo.

>>18442
Probably because people tend to view Mystia more innocently. Although I think there's a lot of potential material in her being a bad influence on Kyouko, but most people like that friendship and don't want to see it broken up. Some sort of dramatic story like that would probably involve some sort of non-touhou-esq status quo change.
Although, I don't imagine all Youkai can come up with that sort of scheme. Wriggle at least seems too honest and interested in getting people to like bugs, all of her buissness ventures fail because of that and at the same time I don't see her concocting a scenario which involves tricking people. Not because she's too moral, but because I don't think she's clever enough.

>>18444
Well, it's not, like, running an MLM, it's just a bit of dishonest business, right? Kids do that kind of thing. Like picking up fallen vegetables from delivery trucks and selling them to neighbours, or something.
Though I imagine you don't have to be a youkai to do that in Gensokyo, haha.

>>18445
True Tewi seems more like the MLM sort but Mystia still assaults people in order to coerce them to buy stuff from her.
I think that would be considered a bad influence, at least worse than the relatively harmless things he fairies get up to.

Speaking of things that fanworks overlook, her long painted nails are also one of those things. Such a shame! She's cooking with these as well. She's playing guitar with these. Can you believe it?

>>18448
That, and her having one less finger. Warning, you will not unsee this.

>>18449
That looks more like an awkward attempt at a side view to me, frankly very easy to unsee and/or not take seriously

>>18448

This should be the topic of the next writing contest. Take a little known fact, tidbit, or observation about a Touhou and just...make a really big deal about it.

>>18451
Oh man, I love that, actually, lol.

Thank you for participating again! Let's vo... Well, not really, actually... We only have one character left in the group of three we had, and it's her turn.
But, I want to say, next week, I want to see how having a group of three every time goes. Even if it won't have a huge impact.

Because it's her turn automatically, this week, the discussion subject is Komano Aunn. Komainu are actually awesome. They're fierce beasts of stone, and look beautiful and dignified, even elegant. They're great pieces of decor for a shrine, and in Reimu's case, it seems that a komainu functional as well. Aunn still has a lot to learn, but she's very dedicated to her job as a gatekeeper. Or is she? You could try sneaking past her as a test, but there's nothing to do at the shrine... Well, what do you think of this stone guardian? Is she as naive as she's often portrayed as? She's not a kid, after all.

I like her well enough, I guess, but her outfit is a pretty unusual choice for a komainu. Nice, cute and comfortable, but... It's not even green or grey. Maybe it's referencing something?
Really cool hair though.

You don't know how happy I was to learn that Aunn can actually make herself fluffy (or at least a dog). Lotus Eaters, constantly teasing us with doggo cameos, finally delivered the goods.

>>18456
That's delightful. That's so cute. I imagine she's actually hard, but the dog is kyuuute

>>18454
I like to image she's very effective at her job, but that invites jealously from other 2hus. Namely Kyouko (Who's her rival for the Myouren Temple's #1 dog), Satono, and Mai who are jealous Okina gives Aunn so much affection. I like to think she, like Reimu, can actually look very dignified, but then she opens her mouth and it's revealed she has a dog-like personality and is a bit silly. Of course, there's a difference between being a bit silly and being childlike, she's very responsible, reliable, and she isn't dumb, even if she isn't notably smart.

>>18457
Yeah, I think that's the implication since she turned into that form to ward flies away. I had already she, as well as a lot of the other animal 'hus, could do that. It's really cute, it'd be funny to see Narumi do the same since she also used to be a statue.

Aunn is one of the few characters Reimu apologizes to for beating up. This alone makes her one of the most powerful characters in the series.

>>18454
She is super cute, but that comes through better in a visual medium than pure text. I don't know that I really know how to use her properly in fanfic.

>>18455
I think her clothes are supposed to be based on Kariyushi, a kind of summer clothing associated with Okinawa, a bit similar to Hawaiian shirts.

>>18461
Yeah, I know about kariyushi and she's probably wearing one, but, like, why... seems really random for a komainu. Or is there some kind of cultural connotation that shirts like that have? Historical, perhaps? And why red? Is it, like... Unoxidized bronze, or something? They're bronze sometimes, I think.

>>18458
>Of course, there's a difference between being a bit silly and being childlike, she's very responsible, reliable, and she isn't dumb, even if she isn't notably smart.
Yeah, Aunn seems like a honest and hardworking girl. Which is very nice, I'm always happy to see that in a character. She works well in tandem with the lazy Reimu.
>It's really cute, it'd be funny to see Narumi do the same since she also used to be a statue.
Hey, hey... That's a fun idea! Would Eiki be able to do the same? I forgot if she used to be a jizou or not, though.

>>18462
Off the top of my head, there's regional variation of the Komainu, the Shisa. But I don't much about them.
>Would Eiki be able to do the same? I forgot if she used to be a jizou or not.
She did, I guess that means if she ever visit Gensokyo again her, Narumi, and Aunn can statue react to people together. Some good bonding time for the three of them.
Although I don't know why they would be bonding?

>>18462
I can see two possible reasons why, mutually exclusive:

- Despite being most associated with the Hakurei Shrine, she's noted to travel around to multiple shrines and temples at first. So it might be designed to look like travelling clothes.

- Alternatively, it was a good way to give her the same colours as Reimu - and thus associate her as a resident of hakurei shrine - without implying she's a miko or has any corresponding roles or knowledge.

>>18463
>Off the top of my head, there's regional variation of the Komainu, the Shisa. But I don't much about them.
Now I'm imagining Aunn going "shiisaa yaibiimi? shiisaa yaibiin!" at her okinawan equvalent, because Reimu (?) taught her how to say it... I think she would do that...

>>18464
>Despite being most associated with the Hakurei Shrine, she's noted to travel around to multiple shrines and temples at first. So it might be designed to look like travelling clothes.
A stereotypical western tourist's clothes for her? Interesting.

Awoo Aunn!!!

Aunn seems like a smart, hard working, type, though not one to take the spotlight. If you're writing a comedy story, Aunn could take a role not too dissimilar to Courage the Cowardly Dog - working behind the scenes to make sure Reimu and company don't fall afoul to dastardly plotting youkai! I think that could make an awesome CYOA.

Thinking of other ways to use Aunn as a main character... I must apologise that I cannot come up with anything that puts her in the forefront that isn't at least somewhat tinged with sadness.

A dog is what Aunn is, and for all their noble traits - their loyalty, their tirelessness, their intelligence - They are rather static, and are dependant on a master for purpose. What if she had to fight tirelessly with or without her master? what if she lost her master (Or less drastically, what if she was separated from her master for a long period of time)? What if she failed in her duties, even in a minor way, and had to come to terms with that?

Of course, these are just suggestions - sorry if they're a little macabre. There's a story I'm told features Aunn on the site at https://www.thp.moe/youkai/res/31590.html that leans towards melancholy.

I found a few historical lion dog stories at shrines, though they're all in Japanese:

https://www.ishikawa-jinjacho.or.jp/shrine/j0239/
https://thelocality.net/komainu/
https://kyotopi.jp/articles/SuzQd

Well, outside of those things, what do you think Aunn does as a hobby? what other people does she hang around with? How is she received by the temples, shrines and other holy institutions she guards as a volunteer? And WHERE can I get THAT OUTFIT!!!

>>18466
As a hobby? Maybe she does people watching, with two bodies spread across multiple temples she would have tons of subjects.
I like to think she has a warm welcome at the places she stays, aside from her one-sided rivals. (Tsukasa from the Moriya Shrine, Kyouko from the Myouren temple, and Satono and Mai from Okina, with no one contesting her position at the Hakurei Shrine)
Aside from the Taosists of course who have a neutral stance on her, due to the conflicts she would come into with Yoshika. On that same note I like to think she's friends with Kogasa who also hangs around the Myouren Temple's graveyard, but isn't as big of a pest like Yoshika, Orin, and Yamamae are.

Alright, week's up. For a while, let's try voting in a more standard format, with three options every time. Though... should three completely new options be presented each time, or should the selected one be replaced with everything else remaining?
For now, let's choose between:
[X] Iwanaga Ariya
[X] Mima
[X] Futatsuiwa Mamizou

(I probably drew the wrong kind of jizo...)

[X] Futatsuiwa Mamizou

Another 500 appearances to Mamizou!

I think the selected one should be replaced. I think its more relaxed that way.

By the way, love the artworks you do for the votes. Very charming!

>>18469
>I think the selected one should be replaced. I think its more relaxed that way.
Makes sense, I guess, because coming up with a new rotation that's more or less balanced every time is kind of a challenge, this way, it will be less trouble, perhaps?
>By the way, love the artworks you do for the votes. Very charming!
Thank you, I try

[X] Mima

[X] Iwanaga Ariya
It's about the best time to discuss newhus while the tail of hype wave's still there, don't you think?

[X] Iwanaga Ariya
One vote for the newest sex'hu.

[X] Iwanaga Ariya

PERSONA!!!1!1!!

Alright, thanks for voting again! Well, that was to be expected, because she's brand new, and a lastboss — Iwanaga Ariya is this week's discussion subject. She's been mentioned a while ago in Bougetsushou, I believe. Must be exciting to get a proper follow-up. Did you expect her to show up? Did you like her? Hey, say, what do you think of her appearance? It's really... unusual, right?

>>18475
I didn't expect Iwanaga to show up again, but I'm very glad she did. Ariya’s design is a good mix of sexy and cool we don't usually get from 2hus.
For the coolness I think the gold on white is a good color combination that somehow gives her a sense of authority. Asymmetrical wings, with one of the wings being a flaming ribcage is also pretty cool.
For the sexy side her dress/shirt thing is really suggestive when you think about it, especially with that rock skirt: meaning, underneath that skirt she either has a longer dress, bike shirt, underwear, or she's going no pan. All of which are incredibly sexy with her plain girl design that has short hair. I also get some light OL vibes from her, which are always nice, we don't get 2hus with a lot of those.
Anyways, despite her being the Princess of Permanence and having an ability very useful to the Lunarians she opposes them. Sure the power of Permanence is the power of rejection, but I think there's something being said narratively where the things the Lunarians end up coveting always reject them.
I can't help but feel like there's something sad about her character. Her profile and spell cards make mention of death, and the power of stagnation being the power of rejection and loneliness while she herself thinks she will always end up alone and in multiple of her endings other characters end up being that again, with Reimu feeling bad for her and wanting to visit.
So even if Ariya doesn't want to leave her shrine after the events of FW, I think it's nice Reimu and Marisa are going to visit her. Oh and Kanako as well, but she's more so visiting Yuiman.

I really like Iwanaga's design. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's definitely some 'demon lord from early 2000s deviantart' in there, but something about how restrained her actual clothing choices are gives this 'demon lord from early 2000s deviantart who really just wants you to submit your work before the deadline so they can get this deal clinched' vibe.

It also works surprisingly well with Zun's past descriptions of Iwanaga-hime as a plain-looking woman. Like, the wings are super flashy, but it's a lot of adornment atop a very plain-looking woman - even some of her magical adornment is disguised as regular clothes.

What really has me wondering is how asymmetrical it is. Like, Nue's design was asymmetrical but still balanced - her wings aren't anywhere near as lopsided as Ariya's. And even her 2hu hat - of which she is the second mask wearer after, y'know, the menreiki - has me wondering. Maybe what we're seeing is one half of a whole, and her sister (Konohana Sakuyahime) will have some of these traits reflected, like the other half-mask? This is of course assuming that whatever I've heard about Yuiman being connected to Iwanaga via her Asama identity being connected to an alt name fo Konohana doesn't preclude Iwanaga having an outright sister.

>>18477
>Maybe what we're seeing is one half of a whole, and her sister (Konohana Sakuyahime) will have some of these traits reflected, like the other half-mask?
This reminded me of something I read on /jp/ a user speculated that Kaguya was a 'clone' made of Konohana and Iwanaga, combining Ariya's 'ability to stop change to a certain degree' with a presumed 'ability to cause change to a certain degree(?)' that her sister would have. Of course that presumes that Ariya's real ability is something like, the ability to control permanence or eternity, which I don't think is unreasonable as the ambiguous wording of character abilities and some character (Namely Reisen and Luna) having ability descriptions that are fake outs for a real ability.
Anyway, the logic for Kaguya being a cross-clone is that she would have a combination of abilities the Lunarians would highly value, and is the only Lunarian who it is unclear what she is, all the other people from the moon we've seen are either rabbits, or gods.

>>18477
I think the asymmetrical design also comes from Iwanaga-hime's lore as an ugly woman. Obviously ZUN is not going to draw any of his characters actually ugly, so he's going to represent that aspect by making them non-traditional beauties. One traditional aspect of beauty is symmetrical features, so Ariya's design was given asymmetric elements to play against that.

The mask and her nature as a "handsome", prince-type woman also play into this. It seems like the main guiding principle for her design was "how can I capture the idea that Ninigi would send this woman away, while still making her pleasing to look at for the audience"? I think it worked.

>>18480
Reimu herself doesn't think Ariya is ugly and thinks Airya's story of being a princess who was hated for her appearance and thus closed off her heart is just a story people made up about her. Notably, while Reimu doesn't agree Yuyuko and Zanmu, or any of the stories about Ariya she still decides to go back to the temple in order help her meet everyone. (As a side note, Reimu's Toyohime's narration confirms that Ariya isn't helping the Lunarians anymore even if she's still living in her old shrine.)
Even ignoring Ariya, while Reimu learns a lot less about the incident compared to Marisa, she seems to glean the personalities of the new characters, particularly Yuiman and Ariya who all the other characters have a bunch of assumptions about, that Reimu and the narration cast doubt on.
I think this is very interesting, as while everyone else has all these thoughts about her as a god of death, or as somebody hated, she doesn't let any of that affect her. She seems pretty steadfast sometimes, even if she's can be careless, like when she says she won't make any moves to help Gensokyo either.

How do you think one might use the character in a work? She seems like the solitary sort. I know she's a god of permanence but maybe something about her and Yuiman leaving the shrine and seeing the new stuff in Gensokyo?

I'm not well-read up on the game, so if you dont mind me asking, whats her relationship with Yuiman? I understand they inhabit the same shrine/lunar captial facility and that Yuiman was brainwashed by the moonies. Is there anything more to that, like a real world relationship between them? I tried searching for myths surrounding the real god but came up short.

I also think its somewhat of a bitter irony that a god of permanence's symbol is a rock, something that might have seemed sturdy and unassailable to men before but which we know now are subject to constant erosion and which men have developed many ways of destroying and reshaping.

Also the trend of barefoot 'hus is good. plz ZUN more toes

>>18484
We don't have much on her yet, but I imagine Kanako would like to get to know her, especially since she seems interested in giving the Lunarians some payback. Reimu independently wants to get to know her better and introduce her to people, even of her own volition, which makes her a rare of a person Reimu likes, doesn't bad mouth, and goes out of her way to associate with. So I imagine there's a story there with Reimu trying to get Ariya out of her shell, ironically enough taking on a role more typical of Marisa.
If you want to really play into her being a chuui you could have her meet Eientei's resident Chuuni Reisen or Sumirenko and I can already imagine public planet is writing a doujin with her and Akyuu.

>>18485

>which makes her a rare of a person Reimu likes, doesn't bad mouth, and goes out of her way to associate with.

Egads! Just as Marisa collected a harem of magicians, Reimu is collecting a harem of gods! First Shion, now Iwanaga!?

>>18486
It's more like Reimu is the one in her harem.

>>18484

As far as I've heard, one of the names associated with Konohana Sakuyahime is Asama no Kami. But at the same time, she doesn't have any of the traits one would normally associate with Konohana (e.g. an explicit sisterly relationship to Ariya, or any references whatsoever to cherry blossoms).

I suspect the real connection is to Asama Shrines. These were shrines that exist around and generally relate to volcanoes in general and mt. fuji in particular - apparently, building replicas of Mt. Fuji on them is common. Perhaps the Pyramid is itself something made to be a replica of Mt. Fuji.

Because most asama shrines are dedicated to Konohana and/or Iwanaga, this'd make her somewhere between 'my miko', and 'my sister's miko', and combined with her 'god-human' status, it's enough for them to be close.

As for where she'd fit in a story... it's surprising how well-connected they both are already, honestly. Yuiman's apparently an old friend of Kanako's, and if you take Ariya as Iwanaga-hime, she's already got connections to Mokou from the original hourai elixir incident and Akyuu as a person who explicitly prays to her. And also someone who wants to tell lunarians to go fuck themselves.

I can imagine her being a good sort of long-term unchanging perspective sort of character. Like how you can see necrons in 40k watch a planet change hands and completely get reinterpreted over the centuries while the necrons themselves stay practically the same. Personally, I actually already have an idea for how to incorporate her in R/R, but it's less 'some specific thing I want her to do' and more 'something I was already planning to accomplish through other means, but now have a specific face to do it with'.

with that said, considering how standoffish and steadfast she is, I doubt that she's going to become anything like a Moriya Shrine Conspirator in terms of troublemaking. she's essentially a goddess of the status quo, at least in an abstract sense. I think I see her more as something deployed to slow a ticking clock, or something to justify specific stories and gags than anything else. Facilitating things and preventing incidents from spiralling out of control more than a mover and shaker in her own right - though I'm more than happy to be proven wrong!

>>18492
She' not exactly 'in' the Mokou story, Keine and her talk about her relation as Youkai'd Mountain's god, but Mokou didn't meet her. They do mention she left her younger sister's side due to her younger sister's bad personality.
But like a lot of other rumors surrounding her in universe, this may just be a story other people made up about Ariya.

Well, it's not like we're not allowed to be negative, so I just want to say this: I do not like her design. I actually hate it a fair bit. She has to be the first Touhou character whose appearance outright infuriates me. There have been characters I didn't like before her, like Biten or Kokoro, but at least I can muster up reasons to tolerate their clothes - Biten has her yamanba thing, which makes sense, and Kokoro passes for a cute if goofy scarecrow girl, even if I'm not sure why she would be scarecrow-themed. Ariya, however, just looks disorderly and rushed, very much like a first draft. I imagine ZUN was going for more of a high fashion look, which is actually something of a tendency in th20. That's great, it's good that he's banching out and experimenting, but this one's a total dud. The only part I like is her head - the mask is cool, I guess.
Her wings are what's immediately striking. I don't actually mind the grey one. It's cool, unique and fitting for the game, even if it could use being drawn in a more elegant shape - it looks like a torn-up rag, which I doubt was the intention. The flaming wing, however, comes out of nowhere and clashes with her whole appearance. It's gaudy, and its shape is weird too - at least it would have been passable if it was the same as the other one, but this shape just makes it look weird and bad.
Her shirt could have been cool, but a lot about it is just done badly. The yellow of the fossil bits works well with the main white of the fabric, and I like the sense of volume the fossils have, but that's about it. I don't like how haphazardly they're wrapped around her - there are too few to form a pattern, so they look aimless instead of tastefully chaotic. The ends of her sleeves also look like torn-up paper because of ZUN's lineart style, which, in turn, makes the shirt look thin and cheaply made. Like, if they were just regular sleeves without that kind of attempt at decor, it would have been fine, I wouldn't have had this much of a problem with it. But this one little detail really ruins it, and it was already kind of subpar.
The skirt is what made me the angriest. She's got her whole unchanging solid stone thing, I get it, but this thing really screws with her silhouette, it's so bulky and uneven. It comes across more like an overly thick belt rather than a skirt. It also probably feels terrible to wear - especially considering her bare legs. And I don't like her bare legs either - for how gaudy her top part is, having absolutely nothing on the legs makes the design really unbalanced. And again, it just doesn't look comfortable with the outfit, and I hate when the character's comfort is disregarded like that. Clothes aren't just some abstract thing that happens to be on the body, they're made and worn, even if it's some kind of art garment. Ariya's clothes don't feel like that. This lack of realism is really hard to bear.
I see that a lot of people think she's cool and even sexy, and sure, I get it, she has a fashionable short haircut, she's wearing a dress shirt, it gives her a strict and mature feel that's unique for Touhou, it's appealing in theory. I get that it's about the legs too - and I'm a leg man, I like a bit of leg, or even a lot of leg, but not when everything above the leg looks like this! To me, it's just as good as just attaching a pair of feminine legs to a vaguely torso-shaped splash of colours - and at this point, I'd rather cut out the middle man entirely and just look at legs in isolation. And besides, ZUN isn't even that good at drawing legs, so they're not appealing in the first place.
>>18477
>there's definitely some 'demon lord from early 2000s deviantart' in there
Very true, by the way.

I've sketched up what I think would have been a better way to go about the idea of her outfit. Her skirt is based on columnar jointing, I imagine that's what ZUN intended too. Both wings are supposed to be in the shape of regular bird wings, but a little more dramatic and stylized. The winged fossil-construct is supposed to be attached to her torso via the "ribcage", which itself is wrapped around her ribs. The "spine"/"tail" is part of that construct too. I've also added heeled boots and a fossil-themed anklet. There are also fossilized bones embroidered on her sleeves, collar and shirt fasteners, matching the anklet and the wing contraption. I don't think this is perfect, and I bet there's somehow some kind of lore inconsistency there too, but I tried, haha.

>>18484
>I also think its somewhat of a bitter irony that a god of permanence's symbol is a rock, something that might have seemed sturdy and unassailable to men before but which we know now are subject to constant erosion and which men have developed many ways of destroying and reshaping.
Oh yeah, actually. I've noticed that too. Is she really so unchanging after all? Well, being a god, she probably actually is. It must be a little tragic to see even things like stones or mountains erode over time, while you stay the same. Though, for her, it's probably comforting, or even just a natural inevitability.

>>18494
>The rocks
I didn't think of those as being part of her outfit, sure they form a skirt but I imagine them as a collection of stones that float around waist and aren't actually connected to her clothes.

Now that its been brought up, why is fire even part of her design? It seems like it'd be the exact opposite of permanence.

>>18496
Yatsugatake is supposed to be a volcano if I recall correctly. She's keeping its flame alive.

>>18496
When she left Mount Fuji for Youkai Mountain the eternal flame of mount Fuji disappeared. Looks like she took it on the way out. Its worth noting that Youkai Mountain is the original form of Yatsugatake before her sister cut it down in jealousy so it looks like she had a sense of irony there.

>>18494
As a continuation: hey, doesn't she look like a glam rocker in her original sprite, with the shirt and the gold bits? The mask sort of accentuates that, and her haircut is a bit visual kei-like. I don't know why Iwanaga-hime would be a glam rocker, but I still wish more fanart leaned into that aspect.
But maybe I'm just seeing things.

Well, that was a pretty lengthy discussion, by these threads' standards, at least! I guess people really were excited about the new game.
Anyhow, let's vote again today. Let's say...
[X] Imaizumi Kagerou
[X] Mima
[X] Futatsuiwa Mamizou

[X] Futatsuiwa Mamizou

[X] Futatsuiwa Mamizou
>Flat
>Smells like nicotine
What's not to love.

>>18502
>What's not to love.
I agree. However
[X] Mima
I cannot vote otherwise. On account of the curse

[X] Mima
I have to rant about one PC-98 character I dislike

Aw man I missed a lot of the earlier discussions, especially Mystia's.

Anyways.

[X] Imaizumi Kagerou

>>18505
Well, if there's something you want to add, there's still the >>17770 Irregular Character Discussion Thread!

>> 18501 here, I'm going to change my vote to Mima on account of the rant and the curse. I hope both of these topics will be entertaining.

[X] Mima

and also on account of my wanting more time to get my thoughts together for Mammaries Futanari's turn

[X] Mima

She ain't ever going to come back to canon, so she might as well come here.

Alright, tie avoided, phew! Thank you, everyone.
Well, would you look at that, another old work character. A pretty famous one, and a pretty persistent one, too, many even consider her a symbol of the era. Do you? It seems that a lot of people want her to come back, but do you think she has to? And what would she even do if she did? The same old haunting stuff? Ah, what a driven girl... By the way, she looked pretty different in the first game, I wonder what's up with that...

I'm an old works fan primarily, but I don't feel that strongly about Mima. Not as much as many people seem to anyway. She's a pretty overhyped character - it's not that weird, she's in almost every game, and is pretty flamboyant, I get it, but I don't feel it. The meme of everyone waiting for her to come back also annoys me like hell, she really shouldn't... It's not about "canon" or whatever, "canon" isn't fun to care about to me. She just wouldn't be the same. It's been ages, ZUN has different sensibilities and tastes now, and even if I'm still interested in the series, I prefer the way he did it in the past. If he were to do Mima now, she simply wouldn't be Mima. A fan could try and write a what-if work that brings her back to highlight the differences between the early and the current games, but I don't think ZUN himself would be willing to do that.
I'd be delighted to hear out anyone who genuinely, unironically wants her to come back, though. People don't usually provide their reasoning when they say they do...

But anyway, despite it all, I don't actually have anything against her. In isolation from fandom culture, she's kinda fun and has a lot of potential for comedy. It might sound weird, but she actually reminds me of Junji Ito's Souichi and his whole deal. Because of her schoolgirl-like appearance in th1, I imagine she was an over-zealous occult otaku who went a little too far with rituals, ended up in hell and became a vengeful spirit, which all absolutely delighted her. I think her and Reimu are a good comedic duo.
By the way, I like to imagine she's sealed away in Hell now, because Reimu tsukkomied her bokeing really hard. But it's fun for her, so don't worry about itttttttt. She has her own stupid occult adventures there.
(But I don't have much of an opinion on her relationship to Marisa... Marisa just isn't evocative to me... It was probably some brainwashing ritual she did for the hell of it... But maybe someone else cares about that way more than I do!)

What do you guys think of the way Mima is represented in fanworks, and what is your favourite?

Mima's pretty popular in old work revival fanworks and ensemble cast fanworks (Often these two categories overlap), and in those she often has some dramatic re-appearance or reveal. I think that that is a bit overdone at this point, and I prefer 'retired' Mima, where she's just not active anymore, but she's still around.

I quite like Mima's personality and character, and unique as (probably) powerful (once) human who's independant from any faction in Gensokyo. I'm fond of magicians, both for their general occult stuff and also their 'punch-up!' style of fighting, using sheer effort to match the power of gods and yokai.

Its hard to bring up Mima without Marisa, and uncommon to see a work with Mima but not Marisa. I like to think of Mima being like a Marisa^2 in a lot of ways. irreverence^2, Disregard for other^2, age^99999. Their relationship isn't really well-described in canon which is a boon, but from her backstory from Curiosities of Lotus Asia Marisa Doesn't have a good relationship with her father or family (https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia/Chapter_06), so it only makes sense they'd be close, right!?!?! Theres no way she intentionally inflamed her relationship with her biological family, come on, everyone loves found family. And Marisa's a good enough egg, so Mima can't be that bad either, right!

>>18511
>What do you guys think of the way Mima is represented in fanworks
If you ask me, I'd say she's taken a bit too seriously and portrayed with too much pathos. She acts intimidating and has a noticeable 90s fantasy anime villain feel, so a more serious approach isn't unintuitive, but she was also never much of a threat - at least that's the impression I get. I wish she was portrayed as still powerful, but more underprepared and kind of silly. In a similar vein, I think she shouldn't be as mature as people usually make her. Her personality is more fitting for someone more youthful and energetic. I don't really know any fanworks that portray her to my liking, though...
>I think that that is a bit overdone at this point, and I prefer 'retired' Mima, where she's just not active anymore, but she's still around.
I guess that's good too, because she really isn't as active as she used to be, but I feel like unless she has an excuse, she has to be involved, because she's just that kind of nosy person.
Does that go against her not being in th4? It does, doesn't it. Maybe she's frightened of Yuuka? Maybe she got a magic power overdose in th3 and got knocked out temporarily? I dunno...

>I quite like Mima's personality and character, and unique as (probably) powerful (once) human who's independant from any faction in Gensokyo.
Oh yeah, I like the faction independance too. Gives her more flexibility. Though she's kind of fixated on being Reimu's rival, that's just her nature as a vengeful spirit... Hey, I wonder, what did the Hakurei do to her...

>Its hard to bring up Mima without Marisa
Tbh I keep forgetting their master-student thing. I guess (as I've said above) to me it was a one-off incident of Mima's possession powers. Marisa's speech patterns are actually fairly different in the old works, which makes me suspicious...

Okay, I've reread the source material and my rant fell flat. In several senses of this word. Turns out Marisa doesn't even mention Mima once in LLS and MS and they only just recognize one another in PoDD, so my main issue with her slavering attitude towards Mima half-dissipates? Really, only now I've got just how all over the place PC-98 dialogue writing is, making Windows epitome of seriousness and consistency in comparison. All characters are as if caricatures of themselves, somewhat different in each game they appear, but ultimately - flat. Author-flanderized, a few traits and nothing more, and all similar in their farcity and endless (sweat)♥(sweat)(angry)(sweat) to boot. Mima is... mocking, haughty, playful, and what else? It's actually easier with characters who appear only once, since you can go wild with extrapolating from one small depiction instead of trying to interpolate between ever so different depictions leaving barely anything as the result.
Mima isn't inspiring enough, or, at all, to disregard dialogue and just go fantasizing wherever like with the rest. Take HRtP - a wordless but evocative game with feeling of dark, alien underworlds, and you get... a schoolgirl ghost? With a knife? Like some fucking yandere from your average seasonal anime about high school jank? How do you belong here, woman? On her later appearance - best personal impression I can get over her being a different quasi-person each game is of an annoying braggart who doesn't even project some actual competence like, say, Yuuka or, in Windows, Yukari, another person who likes to be seen stronger than she is. In fanworks (I guess that's an answer to >>18511) my impression of their depiction is usually more or less the same. Suppose it doesn't help that Mima is often thought of as superficial "symbol" of PC-98, which is unproductive for developing a convincing personality for her.
To finish this - Marisa doesn't deserve a teacher like this, it's good she's gone and it should stay that way.

>>18513
>Okay, I've reread the source material and my rant fell flat.
We really do sometimes over-focus on our impressions while forgetting what actually caused them, don't we.

>somewhat different in each game they appear
I'm genuinely curious as to what you mean. I've never sat down to compare, I just kinda play the games as-is, but I'd actually say the opposite - that every character talks roughly the same all the time in the old games, and not that they're inconsistent. The dialogue is quite simple, so it's hard to make any proper conclusions, let alone say that they're outright different every time. And...
>It's actually easier with characters who appear only once, since you can go wild with extrapolating from one small depiction instead of trying to interpolate between ever so different depictions leaving barely anything as the result.
I think your problem is actually just with Mima, because there are literally two old work-exclusive characters who appear more than once and have dialogue. The other one is Genji, and he's pretty consistent. Or did you mean Reimu and Marisa?

>Mima isn't inspiring enough, or, at all, to disregard dialogue and just go fantasizing wherever like with the rest.
I do agree, even if it's a matter of taste. I guess I'm halfway interested in coming up with a backstory for her, because I actually prefer more grounded settings, which is sort of implied to be her origin, but there are better things in the old works. Though...
>a schoolgirl ghost? With a knife? Like some fucking yandere from your average seasonal anime about high school jank? How do you belong here, woman?
I actually like her th1 appearance, even if it's not my favourite in the game. I get that it goes against the sense of enigmatic pathos the game generally has, but not as much as you seem to feel. I've laid out my interpretation above already - I don't think a teenage occultist is categorically unfitting for a depiction of Hell, or really all that kitschy. It's kind of absurd and somewhat comedic, but also pretty creepy. Also, I just like interpreting her as a teenager, I guess. It makes a lot of sense to me. Of course she'd be incompetent, of course she'd be over-the-top but harmless, of course she'd make herself look like a fantasy villain. She's, like, sixteen.
(By the way, I don't think you'd find a yandere in a seasonal anime anymore, they're way out of fashion, but that's beside the point...)

Oh well, I get the sentiment, even if I like silly stuff, it's not for everyone.

Not much discussion this week... I guess there just aren't that many old work fans here. But maybe it's just bad timing, or pure chance, who knows. I'd like to ask, are you interested in discussing old works, as well as things like DiPP? It's not that PC98 & misc. characters are going to be excluded completely, but maybe they should be less of a priority.

Also, let's vote again. Because it's autumn...
[X] Imaizumi Kagerou
[X] Aki Minoriko & Shizuha
[X] Futatsuiwa Mamizou

[X] Aki Minoriko & Shizuha

You ever notice how a lot of Gensokyo's gods come in contrasting pairs?

And they've got their own game now too!

Sorry Mamizou... I need to stop being a secondary and read the source materials before I can say I'd contribute anything worthwhile!!!

>>18516
[X] Futatsuiwa Mamizou

[X] Aki Minoriko & Shizuha

'Tis the season, indeed!

[X] Imaizumi Kagerou

Sex wolf

[X] Aki Minoriko & Shizuha
I like Mamizou, but...

[X] Imaizumi Kagerou

Alright, it seems that we have the Aki sisters as discussion subjects for this week. It really must be because of the current season. Do you think they represent it well? That's kind of obvious, though - they really do, don't they. Do you like them more as a duo, or do you prefer one of them on her own? Actually, even if they usually appear together, Shizuha seems to be less popular and prominent than her sister, perhaps by virtue of only being a midboss. What do you imagine her to be like? And how do you think the sisters treat each other? How do you think they spend their days as minor gods, and how does the change of seasons affect their life? And do you think they might have special relationships with other seasonal youkai?
(A lot of questions in the intro post this time... Evocative girls...)

Of particular note about Minoriko, is that in TH12.5, she was described as being the Sweet-Smelling God. Perhaps some intrepid scent enthusiast sought to catalogue to unique smells of the powerful figures in Gensokyo.

Regarding the Aki's jobs, I really don't get the feeling they are trying their hardest. Like...running a sweet potato stand? Really? Is this truly the extent of their divine power? I can't imagine their yearly performance review with the Dragon God sees him singing their praises.

I REALLY enjoyed the portrayal of their ongoing struggles we got in Tengu of Misfortune by the by.

>Aki Sisters
Honestly I have a hard time telling these two apart sometimes, but that’s a real shame since they do have differences, Shizuha is more jealous and melancholic befitting Autumn while also being more braggadocious, trying to make up for her lack of popularity. Minoriko in contrast is happier and less god-like with her own sense of jealousy towards her little sister, although shes a bit more generic. Even her trait of not acting very godly isn’t that uncommon, Larva, Tewi, and Suwako all share it to a certain extent.
Anyway I like we get some representation from the numerous harvest gods we’re told exist but don’t often see, these little wild gods who don’t have a great drive to become popular but enjoy what they do and help humans out when asked.
I wonder how the pair feel about Letty or Cirno, I at least like to think they get along with Larva and Aunn. They also make for good side characters in a work featuring mainly weaker Youkai like Mystia, in fact I think they compliment Mystia pretty well with them all being normally unexcitable sorts who can end up being pushed along by others, for good or ill.
But I like to think they have a good rapport with the Grass Roots network.

>>18523
Shizuha is so lightly constructed in canon that she might as well be an OC when she shows up in stuff. Minoriko is at least nice as a canonical big titty good smell goddess.

Minoriko in Symposium of Post Mysticism https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Minoriko_Aki is said to individually bless each crop she helps grow, which takes a long time, and is also said to prefer natural farming methods… that gives me the impression that she is, or likes to be seen as, an artisan in the field of autumn crops. I’d think that to most human farmers, her methods would seem ineffective and even detrimental, (Like, why would you leave weeds in your field!?) but being a god, I suppose this is just a way of racketing up faith, by placing faith in her seemingly insane methods (especially considering that a farmer’s harvest is their livelihood, and a failed crop can mean ruin!!!). Maybe they could even come into conflict with the Moriya gods, given Kanako wants technological innovation, which would extend to modern farming methods, and Suwako’s Mishaguji are able to more effectively bless crops at scale…

Both sister’s danmaku isn’t particularly inspiring. Shizuha throws leaves at you, Minoriko throws rice and sweet potatoes at you. I suppose its to be expected of a stage 1 boss. It actually seems quite wasteful, really…

Coming back to Minoriko’s methods, her sister also similarly paints every leaf red for autumn. Seems like it runs in the family. Do you think they could strike a chord with other characters who like to do things the hard way, like Alice? I bet she’d get along well with Shizuha, with her being an artist too. What art do you think Shizuha makes anyway? Landscapes? Still lifes? A bunch of leaves stuck to a canvas?

>>18524

Minoriko is said to smell like sweet autumn harvest crops. I’d imagine she probably has a bunch of different perfumes of different crops she uses on different days. I bet she also smells warm, like a hearth.

Shizuha probably smells like dessicated leaves (not rotten ones!), like a sort of slightly bitter, earthy smell you could get from grinding up a bunch of freshly-fallen, dry, autumn leaves. I bet her scent is cold and somewhat furtive compared to Minoriko too.

>>18527
>https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Minoriko_Aki
>She can destroy your crops*
*By trampling them
Very cute. I wonder if she prefers multiculture farming over monocultures, Akyuu doesn't make a specific note of it but I get that impression based on her comments.
Although consdiering we only see her use rice and sweet potatoes as weapons maybe she doesn't?
But with Shizua, I do think she would make art pieces with fallen leaves. I imagine they would look very beautiful, of course since she is a painter I'm sure she could make other works as well, and considering she's a god they probably focus on the beauty of the natural world.

The Aki sisters, both separately and as a single unit, aren't really my favourites, but are very nice to remember and think about. I love their concept, (implied) personalities and dynamic, the social group they seem to belong to and, above all, their designs. Autumn-themed clothing and decor is pretty awesome in general, because temperate autumn is a beautiful, colourful season that can provide a lot of inspiration for visual design, and their outfits are wonderfully themed after it. If I were to choose, I'd say that I like Minoriko's peasant girl getup better because of the crop ornaments, but Shizuha's modest and elegant outfit is good too, it fits her personality well. I wish I could say more, but it's the kind of thing that's hard to say much about because it's basically perfect... I would say they're the best-looking Touhous (but I'm bad at picking bests and favourites). I also love their stage and boss fight backgrounds and themes, they're quite beautiful and very autumn-like. "Inadahime is scolding me" is good for walks when there's a lot of fallen leaves around.
I also like how they represent the duality of autumn. Minoriko is life, and Shizuha is death.

>>18528
>But with Shizua, I do think she would make art pieces with fallen leaves. I imagine they would look very beautiful, of course since she is a painter I'm sure she could make other works as well, and considering she's a god they probably focus on the beauty of the natural world.
Aren't the leaves her art pieces by themselves?
By the way, the idea of her hand-painting every autumn leaf is so fun and whimsical, it's like something out of a fairy tale or folk myth. Not a lot of Touhou gods are this hands-on!

>>185270
>Both sister’s danmaku isn’t particularly inspiring. Shizuha throws leaves at you, Minoriko throws rice and sweet potatoes at you. I suppose its to be expected of a stage 1 boss. It actually seems quite wasteful, really…
True! They're so pretty! They deserve pretty and colourful danmaku too!

>Do you think they could strike a chord with other characters who like to do things the hard way, like Alice? I bet she’d get along well with Shizuha, with her being an artist too.
They could, why not. That wouldn't really come down to their hobbies, though. Alice does dolls, which is really significantly different from painting. There is some sketching involved in both, but painting is largely about knowing how to work with colours to portray a scene, which isn't really what you do even if you're making a BJD from scratch - you might paint some details onto the face, but that's about it, unless it's deliberately made to be a painting-themed art doll. And besides, I imagine Shizuha mostly paints autumn landscapes (during her time off, because she misses autumn), which is a bit outside of Alice's area of interest. Depending on your interpretation, Alice would either appreciate the craft from afar or be politely disinterested.

>Minoriko is said to smell like sweet autumn harvest crops. I’d imagine she probably has a bunch of different perfumes of different crops she uses on different days. I bet she also smells warm, like a hearth.
>Shizuha probably smells like dessicated leaves (not rotten ones!), like a sort of slightly bitter, earthy smell you could get from grinding up a bunch of freshly-fallen, dry, autumn leaves. I bet her scent is cold and somewhat furtive compared to Minoriko too.
And there's that duality again... Life and death... Though I've imagined more grounded scents for them. I think they would both kind of smell like dirt and soil, in a good way. Though Minoriko would obviously also smell of cooked vegetables when she's running her stall or something, and Shizuha would have a hint of wet leaf on her at all times, maybe paint as well, gouache, I would say.

I love the artist of picrel to death, but here, they've committed the cardinal sin of Tohou fanart and neglected to add the patterns to Minoriko's skirt and apron. Shame corner.

Sorry, I couldn't draw anything this time T^T Not that I had much to go off of... Have a very cute recent Kaigen piece as a peace offering... Don't get the impression that there's a problem with these two or anything.

For next week, let's choose between...
[X] Imaizumi Kagerou
[X] Sekibanki
[X] Futatsuiwa Mamizou

By the way, what do you think of having a discussion period of two weeks instead of one? Maybe it's just me, but weeks come and go kind of quickly. I imagine it would be more relaxed with two weeks.

>>18530
[X] Futatsuiwa Mamizou
>Spoiler
Nah, I prefer the current schedule.

[X] Futatsuiwa Mamizou

The current schedule is fine. If we need to extend a discussion, simply hold off on the new character vote or move to the irregular thread...

speaking of that is there a way to edit that into the OP? or perhaps just attach it to each new character announcement. Could drive up its numbers.

>speaking of that is there a way to edit that into the OP? or perhaps just attach it to each new character announcement. Could drive up its numbers.
Yeah, I should probably do that. I've already mentioned the thread here, but I guess I should do it in a more "official" fashion

[X] Futatsuiwa Mamizou

[X] Futatsuiwa Mamizou

[X] Futatsuiwa Mamizou

Unanimously.
It's a tanuki! A lot of japanese media about youkai seems to feature mischevious but good-natured tanuki, and she certainly fits the archetype. Do you like that kind of character, and do you think Mamizou is a good example? Tanuki are often drawn as brown too, even if they're actually greyish or reddish. But apart from Mamizou, there are hardly any primarily brown characters in Touhou, for some reason. Maybe it's considered drab and plain, but is Mamizou drab and plain? I don't think she is... That little leaf on her head, it really adds a certain colourful charm to her appearance, doesn't it? By the way, it seems that she took a liking to Kosuzu's book store. She's developed a bit of a soft spot for the girl herself, too, didn't she? Are they friends?

>>18537
A relative newcomer to Gensokyo, in universe at least, aside from the physical characteristics I imagine her with, smelling of tobacco and being flat, being attractive Mamizou has one of those stand up personalities I appreciate. She helps people and despite teasing is generally nice and means well, she also runs a staffing agency and gives off a very reliable sort of feeling. Unlike Yukari who hide their intentions, I feel like Mamizou generally comes across as nicer and more genuine. She’s someone you can come to a mutual understanding with and has very comprehensible goals despite being selfish, it’s a nice contrast. I also like her interactions with Reimu, the red and white shrine maiden can be very clueless despite her good intuition but she and Mamizou seem to have a level of understanding. Reimu’s harsh even if she doesn’t like to be and I think Mamizou has a level of respect for her due to that.
Despite that, I feel like despite being originally Nue’s friend and an associate of the Myouren temple, that aspect of her, along with the temple haven’t shown up much. We usually only see the temple represented by Nazrin who only works there, having a house somewhere else, and being the subordinate of another character. I do also find her one of the more annoying 2hus due to meta reasons, she gets a lot more appearances due to being part of the Geidontei cast while there are a lot of other characters, especially other recent characters, that I’d love to see more of and learn more about.
That said, I would still like to see more Mamizou, just farther away from the group she’s normally set up with these days.

I think the most interesting aspects of her are her ability to cross the barrier and her, to put it bluntly, oldness.

For one, touhou's outside world is fascinating, despite it being rarely touched on in canon outside of Hifuu Club. What kind of outside world youkai, demons and gods could Mamizou have dealings with? And are those Men in Black really just Urban Legends, or is that what THEY want you to believe? (On a more serious note, I think spooky intelligence agents would make killer modern day yokai/demon/whatever for Gensokyo to come into conflict with.)

And her oldness, well, I have fond memories of listening to my tobacco-smelling relatives tell tall tales. Imagine the Tanuki telling an exaggerated and dubiously true story, interspersed with 'wise' morals and racist anecdotes about kitsune. What slurs would a tanuki even call a kitsune?

Her danmaku and her fighting appearances are all quite overwhelming, mostly due to the flashiness and animated natures of her attacks. In her extra boss appearance, she uses unique animal danmaku, and her attacks have a lot of randomness to them. In her fighting game appearances, its like she's using a full illustrated monogatari to attack.

I can't really say much else about her, as I haven't read or played any of the official materials she's been in. I promise I haven't been avoiding her on purpose!

>>18540
I can't think of any slurs, but her usage of transformation is pretty novel. Turning her underlings into powerstones that allow her in and out of Gensokyo, and using an exceptional power for a Tanuki which she applies liberally is nice as usually Touhou abilities are more subdued and vague. She has a real sense of showmanship about how she uses it as well.
Seeing her in an outside world focused work would be interesting, either in Hiffu time or something more contemporary as she'd be one of the few Youkai to be able to cross the barrier and while her being afraid of human thing can be about how humans can conquered so much of the world, I like to imagine that there are a ton of men in black type government affiliated or criminal element that makes the supernatural scene of the outside world more ruthless, if weaker then Gensokyo.

>>18537
>She's developed a bit of a soft spot for the girl herself, too, didn't she? Are they friends?
I'd think yes, well as close as friends as a Youkai and Human can be, after one of them became very paranoid and got possessed due to a Yukari plot.
Besides that, her earthy tone design stands out a lot due to how uncommon that combination of greens and browns is in Touhou

I've always wondered where Mamizou falls on the power scale in Gensokyo. She seems to conduct herself with the invincible confidence of a Yōkai Sage, the aloof devil-may-care attitude of an ancient yōkai, and the pragmatic 'survivalist' mindset of a greater/lesser yōkai all at once.

>>18542
Power levels are always a bit tricky, but I imagine Mamizou is on the upper end of whatever Touhou's mid-tiers are. That's probably inaccurate, but unlike the main girls, while is a fighter, she's primarily a politician. She leads the Tanuki faction and like all the Youkai factions she has a hand in the Youkai village, but when it comes to the truly powerful her abillity to transform them can only momentarily contain them or slow them down.
Her attitude is constructed. The truth is that she's afraid of outside world humans, and while she admits to being selfish I think the truth is that she's a person with a lot of fear, so constructing a persona as this aloof youkai helps her. The survivalist mindset is probably something she had to cultivate in the outside world as a matter of survival and is probably closer to the truth. Like how Yukari has her own motivations, Mamizou's quest for political influence is her way of becoming more secure.
She doesn't even need to be strong, as ideally she has other people to handle that for her. Of course, that's kind of typical for the strong characters as well. The incident solvers generally go out and handle stuff for them.

>>18543

Very insightful, thank you.

>constructing a persona as this aloof youkai helps her.

Isn't that a lot like Yukari? She also frequents the outside world AFAIK.

There are a couple of other characters who have been confirmed to have spent a significant amount of time outside, and I think it'd be fun to compare their attitudes:

Kanako wants to be at the forefront of technological development, likely as a result of being seen in the outside world as a symbol of superstition and backwards thinking because of her being a kami.

Suwako just gave up. That's really depressing, isn't it?...

I know Mike came from the outside, but there isn't really enough characterization of her for me to say anything.

The SDM might have come from the outside, but they're pretty loopy, so who knows?

Okina also has outside access, and by extension her servants as well, but unlike Yukari we haven't been able to even glimpse what's beneath her persona. And Satono and Mai are, well...

Kasen is thus a surprising case among this group of characters. She's seemingly remained moral, and seems unjaded about the status of supernatural creatures such as her in the current day, despite her frequent escapades outside. I'm pretty sure she's not putting up fronts like, say, Yukari.

If I've forgotten anyone, I apologise.

>>18544
>Isn't that a lot like Yukari?
I think the key difference is attitude and application. In both cases it's an act, to a degree, but Yukari's act is always on. Mamizou hangs out with people casually and can be honest.
While Yukari constantly has the act up, even when she doesn't have a reason to. Which really robs the persona of its gravitas, especially since nobody familiar with Yukari really buys any of it due to how thick she can lay it on when not being intentionally vague. To put it in less kind terms, Yukari comes across like an attention whore.

It's okay, we can't all remember every character. Although I'm pretty sure Nue came from the outside into Gensokyo. But for their mindest, I imagine being pushed to the edge of society like Youkai have been was pretty traumatic, although I don't think they are traumatized. Suwako doesn't particularly mind in my eyes, if humans don't want anything to do with her she's fine with whatever the outcome is. While Kanako, the most human of them, comes up with a very human solution or response. While the other Youkai look for ways to eek out survival in Gensokyo and the new world.
And yes, the SDM are the SDM, lol.

Kaigen this time too, apologies... It's actually pretty cool fanart.

For next week, er, you know what? It's a Grassroots showdown.
[X] Imaizumi Kagerou
[X] Sekibanki
[X] Wakasagihime

[X] Wakasagihime

Time for 3 weeks of consecutive grassroots discussion.

As an aside, is it possible to get these voting opportunities and character topic announcements to show up in the updates tab on thp and discord?

And I don't mean this rudely, but please don't forget to link the irregular CD thread too!!!!!!!

Oh dear I genuinely did forget.
>>17770 The Irregular Character Discussions Thread, for supplementary discussions.
Speaking of which, I think I have to mention this somewhere, it's not like you're not allowed to chime in after the voting's started, as long as there isn't a new character chosen yet, it's fine to continue.

>As an aside, is it possible to get these voting opportunities and character topic announcements to show up in the updates tab on thp and discord?
Why not! I'll try to make this week's character show up as an announcement.

Oh...hey I remember this one had some pretty good scenes in From the Scarlet Moon Flows the Spring, I'll go with her.

[X] Wakasagihime

[X] Imaizumi Kagerou

[X] Wakasagihime

[X] Imaizumi Kagerou

[X] Imaizumi Kagerou

[X] Sexybanki

[X] Sekibanki

[X] Imaizumi Kagerou

We've got a werewolf this time. Finally! A lot of people wanted her, judging by the votes over the weeks.
By the way, did you know that she's an extinct species of wolf? Isn't that a little lonely?

>>18557
>By the way, did you know that she's an extinct species of wolf? Isn't that a little lonely?
Yeah, I like how extinct or endangered species show up in Genskyo. It mirror 'extinct' or declining species in reality. While it's still a tragedy, more than one extinct or nearly destroyed species had been found elsewhere. Sometimes extinct just means, not known to science, or eliminated from the human range.
It's a bit sad, I wonder how much of that is intentional. Either way things not welcomed in the outside world are welcomed in Gensokyo and vice versa.
Of course there's also the angle of how, if I was in Genokyo then Hokkaido werewolves wouldn't be extinct of endangered for long.
On a more general note, I like how Kagerou and the rest of the Grassroots are so versitile. They aren't too strong, don't *feel* too weak. Aren't outcasts of exceptions, and in general are just representative of a lot of the down on their luck Youkai we know exist but don't see alot.
Other than that, her dress being the card 'The Monk,' not due to the moon but due to the baldness is hilarious. I wonder how she feels about the Myouren Temple girls all being full head of hair.

>>18557

>>she's an extinct species of wolf

you'd think Gensokyo would sponsor a youkai breeding program for endangered youkai. Why leave their species survival to the whims of chance when they can take matters into their own hands?

Surely this approach won't help youkai who's existence is more faith-based, but werewolves don't fall into that category.

>>18559
The lack of breeding program for such things is one of Yukari's gravest offenses. Kasen and Okina as well but to such a lower degree. Perhaps they are afraid of the extinct species of increasing too much in population, and thus no longer being extinct.
If only Kagerou could find a man who could truly appreciate a woman with some hair.

Kagerou was never all that remarkable to me, but because I've been interested in oldschool western sci-fi and horror B movies lately, I've come to appreciate her. She's a little B-side-of-a-double-feature-ey... Maybe even a little Universal Monster-ey. Her species name in the omake, 狼女, seems to be based on The Wolf Man (1941), or 狼男 in japanese - it's even remarked on in a footnote on Touhou Wiki. Her appearance plays into the impression too. Her dress is much more western and gothic than you'd normally expect from Touhou, and overall, she's more ladylike. Because of that, she reminds me of a horror hostess, someone like Vampira or Elvira. A presenter like her probably wouldn't have the ears, but the rest is very much on point for that kind of female character. It's a little campy and really charming. I want to see Kagerou's Movie Macabre, even if there aren't any cinemas in Gensokyo. Anyway, does anyone get the same impression from her? Probably not. It's a terrible fit for Touhou, lol.
But if you feel the same way, and want to write about her... If the aesthetic clash doesn't bother you, or if you'd actually like to exploit that dissonance in your work, you can totally watch a bunch of 1930s-60s horror movies for inspiration. The kind focused on vampy women and/or werewolves is good (there isn't actually a lot of overlap, though), but really, anything goes, it's about the spirit and the format.

It's a woman and a dork. With wolf ears! A confounding combination of character traits.

Taking her seriously is a mistake, what you need to do if you ever meet her (somewhere in the Nth dimension) is to immediately pet her.

>>18561
The Grassroots Youkai do have a classic monster vibe going on, Kagerou is the wolfman is you've said. Wakasagahime is the Siren or Fishman. While Sekibanki is a classic japanese monster.
Of course like the rest of the grassroots movement, she's not really dangerous and kind of a dork.
It makes me wonder if she knows Remilia, well Remi would have to be the one to seek her out, Kagerou would probably be too scared to approach her. Especially with the pop-culture rivalry between Werewolves and Vampires.

In her appearance in DDC, her danmaku is super erratic and chaotic, and combined with her theme really gives sets the atmosphere of a base fight for survival.

However, her beastly side seems to mostly be used to set up a gap moe with her cute and awkward side - what with her being part of a social support network for yokai. I mean, just read her article in Alternative Facts: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Alternative_Facts_in_Eastern_Utopia/Article_and_Interview/Kagerou_Imaizumi

You go, garou!

Stuff with her and the other grassroots yokai just getting by and setting up community events is really charming. If you want a Kagerou story recommendation, I've read the first few chapters of Teruyo's 'From the Scarlet Moon Flows the Spring' https://www.thp.moe/sdm/res/63685.html and found it quite good.

アオーン。

Maybe a yokai breeding program would be a good premise for a lewd story...

>>18557
I feel that Kagerou's little social club is a very qurious entity. Like, how big is Grassroot Youkai Network? Are there other members (I always thought Letty was one, if only to keep herself informed on what's going on while she slumbers)? Who made it (well, likely also Kagerou, but y’know)? What made them create it in the first place? It's likely just me, but GYN as a whole feels like an anomaly of sorts, almost as if they came from a different period of Touhou, or are a fan creation that somehow became official.

As for the wolf lady herself, that's one odd detail – she's explicitly a werewolf, as in, a human turned beast rather than the other way around, as one one would expect considerring she turns into a local kind of wolf (an extinct one, no less). I feel that this is a story waiting to be told, and I'm surprised I haven't seen one yet.

As I see the character dynamics in the Network, Kagerou is something of a big sister type for the others in it. She’s probably the most active member, likely the one with the most contacts within it.

I had an idea of how the Network came to be: after Kagerou came to know Wakasagihime (which involved one almost eating the other), she came to realise just how isolated the mermaid was from everyone despite living in a relatively known place, and that this isolation could lead to her getting forgotten. So now she looks for solitary youkai to support their existence in that little way. She probably knows some pretty obscure locales around Gensokyo. If that is the case, it could be possible that the Network took care of Kyouko for a while before she joined the Myouren Temple.

>>18564
She's one of those characters that seems to prefer melee. Didn't ZUN say somewhere that she was partially inspired by a character from Darkstalkers?

>>18565
>Who made it (well, likely also Kagerou, but y’know)?
Considering she apparently hosts game nights and the like, it's pretty likely!

Ah, sorry to cut the discussion short... You can make use of the >>17770 The Irregular Character Discussions Thread to continue talking, though!

So, right, I want to go back to the cycling-through-threes format for a little, because I just got an idea. I think this will be fun. The protagonists were going to come up eventually, but I didn't want them to hog the votes when they would appear, so...
[X] Hakurei Reimu
[X] Kirisame Marisa
[X] Satsuki Rin

[X] Satsuki Rin
What else are you supposed to choose in this situation.

My reflection's changed again.
Even the impulses I feel,
Weak as they are, seem
Novel and foreign.
How am I sure I'm the same person
Who went to sleep last night?
At least I still have my name
[X] Satsuki Rin
Or is that, too, something
I just picked up wandering?

[X] Hakurei Reimu
For the Crimson Slasher!

[X] Hakurei Reimu

>>18567
You actually did it, the absolute madman!
[X] Satsuki Rin
Voting for the best protagonist.

[X] Satsuki Rin

The Deepest Lore.

[X] Satsuki Rin

You just KNOW you were about to make some bank when this QT shows up.

Hey, can you believe it? It's Satsuki Rin. It wasn't a joke option, you know. Characters that barely have anything to them are very evocative and fun to think about. And there really isn't much - there's her name, 冴月麟, and two of her shot types, 花 and 風. That's right, nothing else at all! It has to be said - contrary to popular opinion, the C62 circle cut girl (https://en.touhouwiki.net/images/9/9b/Th06Rin.jpg) was never supposed to be anyone from th6, let alone the unused character specifically. So it ain't Rin! Did you know that? Anyway, what do you think this Sakkirin girl could have been, apart from the nurse speculation and the obvious kirin thing? Let's dream of a th6 with three main characters, shall we?

What if she was killed retroactively?

Cut content characters and 'hidden in the code' characters as a trope really blew up in the mid 2010s with DDLC, Undertale and all that followed after them.

I'm not sure if Satsuki Rin takes after them or if she inspired them, but in a lot of her more dramatic depictions thats what she is - If she's not lost in the code, she's lost in the aether, or sealed away. Don't forget mental illness!

However, recently I've seen depictions of her where she's just there. Its Rin Satsuki, she's a nurse, she's a qilin (Though the circle cut girl's design they use doesn't really look qilin at all.), she's got an erhu. Fill in the rest. Maybe have a joke about EoSD, missed opportunities and lines of code.

Either or is fine, so long as they are well done. A lot more effort and care has to be put into having a dramatic depiction than having her just be there.

Just throwing in the glitchy girl who was robbed of her chance at existence for the sake of having her there is at this point overdone.

I don't think I've ever seen a fanwork that focuses on her qilinness, and thats probably because they use the circle-cut girl design for her. Its quite a shame, I love my monster girls and mythology. You don't even have to give her a whole new design, just put the orns on her, c'mon, please!

Anyway, shoutout to qilins as a whole for saving me multiple migraines during the Cathedral with the estoma spell in SMT 1. I'm not sure if calling them GOATs would be racially insensitive, but I'm sure you get my sentiment.

(I'll write out my thoughts properly a bit later, but)
>>18577
>I don't think I've ever seen a fanwork that focuses on her qilinness
There is this ONE, this SINGLE piece of fanart that I cherish like no other. It's an original, non-circle cut girl Sakkirin, complete with wind and flowers. I wouldn't personally do her this specific way, because this design is a bit unfitting for ZUN's style at the time, but it's the thought behind it, you know.
https://www.pixiv.net/artworks/1676500

>Cut content characters and 'hidden in the code' characters as a trope really blew up in the mid 2010s

True, but ESoSD was released way before this time, right? In an era of game design constrained by megabytes, it's more likely she was cut because she simply didn't fit into the game space allowed by the final product.

Perhaps the takeaway is that Satsuki is a bit of a chonker compared to more slim, aerodynamic 2hus.

All that being said, I wonder how her protagonist motivation would differ from the others...

Reimu is motivated by duty,
Marisa by her kleptomania,
Sakuya is often compelled by Remi,
Sanae by her innate sense of justice,

Maybe Satsuki's shtick would be she's a bit of an airhead who happened to get caught up in other people's problems by mistake.

>> True, but ESoSD was released way before this time, right? In an era of game design constrained by megabytes, it's more likely she was cut because she simply didn't fit into the game space allowed by the final product.

EoSD iirc was released in 2002. The reason for cutting Rin was most likely time constraints rather than disk size (other features like IN's fights against Sakuya and Youmu were cut duo to this, to cite an example - each team was supposed to fight each other instead of Reimu and Marisa. IN was supposed to be the last game, too. Luckily Zun changed his mind.)

>>18579

Ah, you've brought up another aspect of Satsuki I forgot - that she was meant to be a main character.

An airhead, huh? It could work, but you've got me thinking of a different way to depict her.

What if for a main character Satsuki, we played into her forgotten-ness more? One of the main themes of Touhou is preservation - Gensokyo is a sanctuary for the forgotten, after all.

What if Satsuki wants to solve incidents to gather fame, and make her name known in order to preserve her very being as a Yokai? Perhaps she puts up a haughty front as an ancient and venerable Qilin in order to mask the anxiety and fear that wracks her as a being on the verge of disappearance, perhaps one that has already lost parts of themself? I think that kind of character could be good, and could explore some interesting concepts of the ways Touhou's world works.

art is from https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/123072793

>>18581

Poor Satsuki-chan...slow death by ontological decay would be a pretty heavy theme. Wouldn't Yukari's Boundary of Fantasy prevent this type of thing though?

Or maybe...existence is a privilege afforded only to the useful Yökai, with the less desirables being driven out of hearth and home by a faith-based bureaucracy and ecclesiastical red-tape.

It's definitely an angle that works. Characters proactively working on protecting/enhancing their mythos is something I want to see more of in Touhou stories.

>don't be afraid to speak up.
o-okay.

>>18577
>>18581
y'know, if i'm allowed to play around with the timeline a bit, i have a different idea that's formed from her not being a playable main character yet possibly being an important figure. what if she's forgotten mostly because she's long dead?

insane idea, i know. but, yeah, taking all the common, if disparate, aspects i suddenly have this image of her being some sort of a human sage. with her circle-cut design, perhaps her qilin association is not exactly a literal one, where instead she embodies their virtues. perhaps one was sighted during her birth. like her namesake, she detests violence and would prefer having tea and playing her erhu. would probably make a good nurse. the first inklings of something akin to spell card rules could've originated from her as well.

an unexpected lynchpin of those precarious formative years when the need arose, and through her one could see the glimmer of a future gensokyo. in that sense too she embodied a qilin. cinnamon roll was too good for the world then. maybe still is. long-lived folks might know of her, but not who she was. and the only thing left of her visage is a glass plate negative kept somewhere nobody seems to remember.

could be sappy, maybe trite. i like it tho. of course, i don't speak as someone who's consumed enough of gensokyo's history. feel free to correct me.

>>18579
>airhead getting caught up
that might work. i don't see a qilin figure going around getting into fights for vague reasons unless it's clearly a subversive take. granted, it's touhou. still, it's why i'm leaning towards her not being a playable character if going the qilin route.

>>18578
>I'll write out my thoughts properly a bit later
Ok time to do it

The concept of a mysterious Satsuki Rin, fully thought out, but tragically cut at the last moment, an unexplored and novel girl just out of reach, is, generally speaking, pretty cool. Like, speculating about cut content is fun, imagining what could have been is exciting, fans love that. I imagine it's why the idea caught on at all.
To be honest, she's a bit difficult. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with underdeveloped characters - HRtP is my favourite game, and I have a lot of fondness for many nameless midbosses - but in most fanworks, Sakkirin ends up feeling very... flanderized, if that's the right word. I guess it's kind of a knee-jerk reaction to take the only known traits of a mysterious and underrepresented (in this case, it's more like "unrepresented") character and run with that, but it seems rather shallow. Like, she's a lost character, so she's got to be all glitchy, horror-like and unknowable, and maybe she'll also have some vendetta against the current heroines/the player/ZUN/the world/any combination thereof - and even if it's not exactly a creepypasta situation, people still seem to gravitate towards accentuating her lost-ness and throwing in something dark, akin to >>18576 or >>18582. It's understandable, right, but kind of trite at this point, and makes the character feel very one-note.
A writer I know had a certain idea of how to approach it in a fresher way, but I won't spoil a yet-unwritten work.

I do agree with >>18577 here:
>I don't think I've ever seen a fanwork that focuses on her qilinness, and thats probably because they use the circle-cut girl design for her. Its quite a shame, I love my monster girls and mythology. You don't even have to give her a whole new design, just put the orns on her, c'mon, please!
True! Sakkirin is kirin!!.. I have this silly idea of leaning into the fact that Kirin is ZUN's favourite beer brand, one way or the other. Maybe she was meant to be a kind of gijinka of the kirin on the logo? Not very likely, but it would be funny. By the way, that kind of Rin wouldn't really be a proacrtive incident solver, would she? She strikes me as someone who would end up entangled in it through a series of unlikely coincidences and comic mishaps. So, actually, kind of like >>18579's airhead proposal.

But currently, I like portraying Rin as an (in-universe) inside joke between the erhu player girl and her friends.

What if the real reason Satsuki Rin doesn't show up is because kirins only show up when a good leader is present and the current leader of Gensokyo sucks.

That's like the most kirin thing imaginable. ZUN has been foreshadowing gaphag's incompetence since the start of the Windows era.

Maybe the real Satsuki Rin is the theories we made along the way.

>>18592
...Yeah, literally, that's how this works. That's the point of the character as she is. And that's great, you know. People should embrace that kind of approach with Touhou. I wouldn't use the word "theory", though. It's really more like free interpretation.

By the way, if we've established that the erhu girl isn't Rin, then what does everyone think she's like? It's a pretty big question right before the end of the week, haha... But still.
I don't think she has a particularly flamboyant or bright personality, to me, she feels like a pretty average girl. Maybe a little slow, maybe quite invested in her music, but not someone who stands out much. With all the other nameless girls seeming like rather eccentric characters, I imagine she might feel like she's lagging behind a little.
By the way, because they look similar, I used to think that her and the paintbbs handkerchief girl were the same person, but now, I prefer them as twin sisters, because there are more girls this way.
https://en.touhouwiki.net/images/6/67/%E3%81%8A%E7%B5%B5%E6%8F%8F%E3%81%8D%E6%8E%B2%E7%A4%BA%E6%9D%BF-1.jpg This handkerchief girl.

The exmiko shook her head. She glanced across the fire toward the yama. That great hatless thing. You wouldnt think to look at her that she could outdanmaku Mara herself now would ye? Egads the girl is a dodger, you'll not take that away from her. And erhu. She's the greatest erhushou I ever heard and that's an end on it. The greatest. She can stream, speedkill, deathbomb, graze. She's been all over the world. Her and the prince they sat up till breakfast and it was Shanghai this and Seoul that in five languages, you'd have give something to of heard them. The prince's a learned woman herself she is, but the yama...

>>18594
Erhu hero!

Oh hey, that was a decent amount of discussion for someone like her. I want it to go on a bit more, but... Oh, well... It can go on here, if you want... -> >>17770 (The Irregular Character Discussions Thread)

It feels wrong to have anyone but Sakkirin as their third competetor, so this time, we will be choosing between the big two.
[X] Hakurei Reimu
[X] Kirisame Marisa

We'll go back to banki-sagi-someonethird when the protags are over with probably?

[X] Hakurei Reimu super cutes

MFW the art is back

And also anyone that votes for
[X] Kirisame Marisa

[X] Kirisame Marisa

[X] Hakurei Reimu

Top 10 cutest 2hu.

[X] Hakurei Reimu

[X] Kirisame Marisa

I'm not at all against dunking on hypocritical and corrupt shrine maiden, but I feel I can also say something on the rather nicer witch

[X] Hakurei Reimu

>>18600
Damn, EraToho now has graphics?!

It's actually kind of hard to say anything that isn't obvious, because it's the main character herself, the famous Reimu Hakurei. It might be hard to judge someone like her fairly - in a way, she's the face of the series - but she's really a pretty normal girl... Do you like the protagonist, or do you actually hate her, or is she so ubiquitous that you barely notice her?

(Bonus question from me: what's your favourite official Reimu outfit? Share a pic. Explain why. This is extremely important.)

Reimu is an orphan from outside world.
Yes/no?

>>18605
Personally, I prefer the idea that the Hakurei Bloodline is a stable thing.

In terms of the three options - orphan from the outside world, orphan from gensokyo, and hakurei blood relative - I feel like the latter has the most unique ideas from it. It's the only one that has any canon support, albeit only in PC-98. And a lot of stories which go with the orphan route also don't actually do anything that you couldn't do with the bloodline, though the ones that do are usually excellent, like No One Left to Ask After Me ( https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/6514781?q=pool%3A20463 )

One problem with discussion of Reimu is that she's got the highest entry barrier of all 2hus, because she appears in almost every game or printwork and therefore there's the most canon material on her of all. I haven't read neither everything nor everything I've planned to read, but, whatever, we've got a discussion I suppose and others can try to smack me down or even support me with facts I don't know.
So, I was thinking how to pin down what exactly puts me off in her and how to tie what I already put in words about her with facts I remembered that seemingly contradict it... and then two words in the starting post struck me like a revelation. "Normal girl", that's it. She's too much normal. ZUN likes to say that she "treats everyone equally", sometimes adding "humans or youkai", which puts it into context of how trivial thing this really is - but what we really see is more of "for friends - everything, for enemies - the law" - she's nice with strong ones of Gensokyo yet hypocritically enforces the supposed order on everyone else (here gets the Fortune Teller). She concocted a rationalization for this in CDS, though, about how humans are "in fact" stronger than anyone else in Gensokyo, which quite obviously breaks down in reality, but that's enough for her to not be bothered by what she does. But look around - don't you see people like this all the time? In general Reimu is quite an inconsistent and self-contradictory person, who can be cruel in one moment and merciful and empathetic right after - but aren't people inconsistent and self-contradictory?
Reimu is lazy and unambitious, something which is extensively highlighted in canon. She doesn't strive for anything higher, she simply cares about maintaining her own livelihood and her position. That sometimes forces her to act proactively, which we see most prominently with her money schemes in WaHH, but even more often we see here just sitting there, with no reason to do anything once her fortunes is secured for a while and when nothing is forced on her externally, such as an incident or, say, Yukari forcing her to train in SSiB. Sure, she has a honest commitment to her duty as incident solver and preserver of Gensokyo's "balance" - but real life people rarely care strictly about money and not at all about their job either, something which didn't go unnoticed by, say, corporate HR managers. I won't be going over Reimu's relationships with other characters in this initial post of mine - it's a daunting task given she's at least met literally every other touhou - but her and Marisa are like polar opposites in this. Marisa has will, drive and ambition - to become a magician from nothing, I'd say, without any particular talent for it but with desire to learn. Reimu was granted immense power but is so uninterested she doesn't do anything with it beyond her duty, marking her weaker than at least one previous shrine maiden - we know that for sure now. Even her ability ties in into this - to float through life, as a driftwood carried away by currents, never trying to do anything of her's own volition lest she only makes everything worse - the only inevitable, ugly outcome of Taoist principle of wuwei.
All in all, Reimu embodies weaknesses of humanity without any strengths. As much as I hate this word, she's the epitome of a layman - and a perfect vessel of mediocrity for Gensokyo's powerful to fill the position of Hakurei shrine maiden, so that status quo will not be challenged and all ambition and desire for change and improvement will be quashed.

Also, speaking of power granted without effort...
>>18605
>>18606
All ideas about special power of bloodlines evoke disdain, if not disgust, in me - they stink of ideas justifying aristocracy as inherently better by birth alone than commoners, or worse. Here it's important to remember that adoption was (and still is) absolutely normal for Japanese - especially to allow a talented apprentice to inherit a nominally inheritable profession (that most professions were artificially forced to be inheritable only rather helped this custom to spread, I think). Reimu easily could have been adopted and Hakurei powers somehow spiritually invested on her, we don't know how exactly does it happen (same with anyone in the long chain of her predecessors, of course). What of outside world/local question - I think it had to happen at a very early age either way, and all her remaining relatives, if any, had to be cleaned, so that Hakurei shrine maiden wouldn't exhibit either undesirable memories or undue preferences for one humans over another, so the difference kinda fades. Outside world is a much larger talent pool though...

>>18604
> Share a pic
Wellllllll...
I'll be honest, the one reason holding me back from relegating Reimu to bottom of my mental touhou sort is that she's sexy. Those long black hair.,. but also miko outfit plays not the last role here. I don't really care about fine details of clothing, but between larger categories like Windows vs PC-98 groups of outfits... I dunno. Too light and too baggy respectively, both work but none are just right for me.

>>18605
I prefer to think that the power of Hakurei is a bloodline thing rather than something that can be passed down to anybody, although I can see why it's interesting.

If anything, I prefer to think that if it really is an orphan, then Reimu comes from the village, not from the outside.

Do you think we will ever know anything from the Hakurei patron god (other than "it's disappointed/angry by the lack of faith")?

As for my favorite Reimu outfit, it's the one from Curiosities of Lotus Asia (or the one from PoFV if we're talking main games only).

>>18605
>Orphan
100%
>From the outside world
I'm not sure about that one, it could go either way. From a canon perspective we've had characters mention selecting a new Hakurei before so it's probably just a position that's given to people. Although Reimu does share a physical resemblance with that past Hakurei Miko, they are both japanese women with sterotypical japanese traits i.e long black hair.
Reimu has also off handedly mentioned that parents aren't reliable before. I only vaguely remember the context being that she and/or Marisa were outside when it was snowing and she was comparing the unreliability of parents to something else, also she used an archaic method of tracking time. I can't find the manga panel right now.
So I do think she's an orphan without any familial connection to the past Hakurei. Now that's just what I think is likely canon, but what YOU want to write in a story is a completely different matter. If you want to highlight something in your story choosing one over the other might be better. For instance if you want to highlight Reimu's disposability as the Hakurei Shrine Maiden, then making her be just one in a long line of orhpans chosen by the Sages to live and die for the sake of Gensokyo might be better. If you want to do something about generational trauma, maybe having Reimu's parents be a plot point could be a good idea. Basically it depends on what type of story you want to write and what you think will be better for the story, and that is what is more important.
Personally I prefer Reimu being an orphan, but that's just because I hate the idea of Reimu *having* to get pregnant and continue the Hakurei line.

>>18604
I like Reimu, but like most I have my preferred flavors of Reimu. Namely I like her as someone who comes across as cold, violent, and thuggish due to her trouble relating to people but actually has a heart of gold that's burdened by responsibilities she feels like she has to carry out.

>>18609
>>18604
Also I forgot, while this pic doesn't have the vibe I prefer from Reimu, I just think she looks really cute here. While not a preferred flavor I think it's something like an ideal for Reimu, unburdened by responsibility, happy, and able to live her life freely.

>>18609
>From a canon perspective we've had characters mention selecting a new Hakurei before

Really? Where? (I want to read more about that)

>Although Reimu does share a physical resemblance with that past Hakurei Miko

A selection could have been made between different heirs in the same family, too, it's a common trope in japanese media

I agree that you might like one or the other based on what you want to write, I think it is ambiguous enough for it to work either way.

>>18607
>All ideas about special power of bloodlines evoke disdain, if not disgust, in me - they stink of ideas justifying aristocracy as inherently better by birth alone than commoners, or worse

Not necessarily. In this case in particular, even if the Hakurei bloodline is "better" (in your words) than the commoner, they are respected and feared in more or less equal amounts and not treated particularly well for the position. I don't feel like it's a privilege like being born in the Hieda family, for example. The Hakurei shrine maiden is a tool, a weapon used for enforcing the rules that the sages put on Gensokyo. Hardly an enviable lifestyle.

>>18609
>Personally I prefer Reimu being an orphan, but that's just because I hate the idea of Reimu *having* to get pregnant and continue the Hakurei line.

This one is hard, but it ties with the above "do what you want to write": On one hand you have an orphan that might be feared by the commoner and shunned, thus eventually dying alone (might even be by design by the sages themselves!). On the other hand, with a bloodline you might have a loveless marriage because of duty alone.

I'm a romantic. I prefer to think that Reimu can eventually find someone to love and raise a family with to keep the cycle, but maybe I'm too idealistic.

>>18611
>Really? Where? (I want to read more about that)
Silent Sinner in Blue, page 4 & 5. Aya mentions how they might need to find a new shrine maiden, wonders how many shrine maidens this makes now, and hopes the next one is more interesting.

>>18612
>page 4 & 5
Chapter 20, page 4 &5

>>18612
I found it, chapter 20. Transcription for anyone interested:

>"For some reason, she's the only one who didn't come back."
>"This way... I suppose we'll have to find another shrine maiden before long"
>"How many will this make, anyway?"
>"It would be fine if it's someone who'll make lots of news for my paper, though."

I also found:

- Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, Reimu's entry:
"The Hakurei Shrine exists to watch over the Great Barrier necessary to the present Gensokyo, and the Hakurei shrine maidens resolve incidents for a living, generation after generation."

No mention of the position being hereditary or not, left ambiguous (as always).

>>18607

The power of the bloodline could be because the god itself grants the power to the current shrine maiden, and only does so if it is blood related. You could even lore it up, like having the god be a deitized Hakurei matriarch/patriarch, or by having the Hakureis be descendants of that god, or the Hakureis are a bloodline blessed/chosen by that god. Then its more about the Hakurei god's nepotism than any genetic superiority.

And also, good post, even if I feel secondhand shame on Reimu's end reading it - SHEESH!

Anyway, my favorite Reimu's her IN outfit. look at those frills!!!

Ah! Come to think of it, I'm kind of in a difficult position here. Because
>>18607
>One problem with discussion of Reimu is that she's got the highest entry barrier of all 2hus, because she appears in almost every game or printwork and therefore there's the most canon material on her of all.
That's true, and because when it comes to Touhou, my scope of interest is really rather narrow and not that heavy on character and lore building, I imagine I just won't have anything valuable to say within that paradigm of thought. And, like, I guess I can get behind >>18607's overall take, it makes sense based on the arguments presented in the post, but they don't connect to anything that Reimu is to me. And what she is to me is a goofy, airheaded comically sociopathic miko protagonist (a bit like Asahina from Haunted Junction, but without the... y'know), and it's charming enough, I guess. That personality is fitting for a humorous take on a shrine maiden exorcist.

Though, really, what's truly important to me is her appearance.
I adore fantasy/anime shrine maidens. Red and white is my favourite colour combination, and mikos tend to be drawn with black hair, it all has a beautiful sense of contrast. The best of Reimu's outfits really emphasize that miko-like quality. I firmly believe that she's at her best when it's just red and white. You know, I hate that yellow tie, I really do. I can tolerate the blue one, but the yellow tie screws with the colour scheme so badly that I can confidently say that it genuinely ruins Reimu for me. I can hardly bear to see her in the new games. It's so gaudy, it's so uncomfortably warm, with her brown hair, with the plain black lineart, with the cel shading... You know, she used to be so beautiful. Take her in th7 - the white frill trims and the lace-like pattern on the red of her collar, bow and tie, the red ribbon trims on the white of her sleeves, it's striking, it's beautiful. The sharp contrast and the minimalistic palette give her a rather cohesive miko-like image too, I really hate how it seems to be fully gone now... That yellow tie... It's painful!
Anyway, my favourite Reimu outfit is this one, it's from ZUN's old website. It strikes a perfect balance between fantastical and classically shrine maiden-like. It should have been permanent.

Sorry. This is obtuse. Who cares about that sort of thing anyway? I do. Who cares about all of that, right? Let's discuss potential uses in fanfiction and story ideas instead.

>>18616
Don't worry, I liked being able to read about you fawning over Reimu's clothes.
And for what it's worth I think she be more embarrassed by that than the above tirade against her.

>>18616
I'm not a writer, I'm an artist and I'm all in on discussing the character's clothing!
imo her blue tie goes better with all the red and white, but I don't dislike the yellow tie either. I'd like to see Reimu with a more traditional attire in a newer game, but I think it has become her signature by now and it'd be very difficult for her to go back.

>>18618
If we're talking about attire we'd like to see Reimu in, crop top plus sarashi is a fandom classic despite Reimu wearing a white shirt as part of her shrine maiden uniform.
It's a really flashy and eccentric way that feels like it doesn't suit Reimu, but is is pretty hot.

>>18607
The issue with Reimu overall is that if you boil her down to her core and ignore the decades of stupid poor meme. Reimu is, frankly, just kind of a spoiled bitch. She coasts through life, not really actually lacking anything. Able to do as she wishes without ever facing serious consequence's, all the while being complicit in literal mass murder and keeping the human villagers trapped.

This might be a really fucking weird analogy, but she's basically how Frank Grimes views Homer. "You’re what’s wrong with Gensokyo, Reimu. You coast through life, you do as little as possible and you leech off decent, hard working people…like the Human villagers. If you lived in the outside world, you’d have starved to death long ago."

>>18622
I don't get this, why would it be Reimu’s fault? Whether you believe Reimu is an orphan or she's from a lineage of hakurei shrine maidens, she's been in her position since she was effectively a child. She's a child soldier, she didn't choose to be the hakurei shrine maiden, it was chosen for her.
What is Reimu supposed to do? Not send outsiders back to the outside world. Not try to uphold the spellcard rules? Not try to seek out a peace that doesn't require any bloodshed? Not try to prevent humans from becoming Youkai? Let incidents go unresolved? Kill the sages and then the Lunarians for good measure?
She's the hakurei shrine maiden, she can't destroy gensokyo. If she did try she would be stopped.
If you want to blame someone, blame the sages. Reimu didn't create Gensokyo, they did.
But yes in the outside world child soldiers die, because that's what happens to child soldiers. They die in war.

>>18623
First up, we don't know how Reimu ended up in the position she did. Yukari might have showed up to her and asked her to become the hakurei Shrine maiden and she agreed. I doubt it, but this is what happens when you don't give your main characters a backstory.

>What is Reimu supposed to do?
Assuming she chose to be one, stop. Assuming it was chosen for her, stop. Assuming that is impossible without her being killed, which requires a lot of assumptions, then either die on your feet with some dignity or try to undermine the status quo screwing you over.

>>18624
She met Yukari for the first time in PCB. while yes Reimu could have theoretically chosen the position she uses that position to try to do good, also manipulating or coercing a child into being a child soldier still makes them a child soldier. Children don't have full autonomy in society for a reason, bad actors can manipulate them, but that's not the child’s fault. If Reimu accepted the position of hakurei shrine maiden as a child that neither absolves her of anything bad she's done but neither does it damn her.
Also Reimu does undermine people's orders when she believes her way is better, that's literally the climax of CDS.
She is just lucky enough that the sages largely what she wants, a more peaceful gensokyo. Either way I don't think dying on your feet would be an effective way to change Gensokyo for the better, especially when she has no guarantee that her successor would share the same mindset she does.

>>18625
I don't disagree with most of your ideas on principle, I think you are just making a lot of assumptions. Assuming PC-98 is still canon she was, what, 14 when she started her career? And, again, there is nothing preventing her from just leaving

Besides, she is still very much profiting of the state of Gensokyo. I don't see her as a good person suffering because of what she has to do.

>>18626
I didn't say she was a good person, she's just not a spoiled bitch who's.
>what’s wrong with Gensokyo
Also 14 is still a child, and just leaving the position as the same problems as killing herself. Reimu has no guarantee that her successors would hold her same ideals and if you want to consider early or pre-windows era stuff canon the previous hakurei shrine maidens didn't even return outsiders to the outside world.

>>18622
That's a bad analogy. Reimu might be lazy, I can give you that, but spoiled? really?

>>18626
Also, "profiting from the state of Gensokyo"? She's in the same boat as every other human. At the end of the day, she plays police to a fragile fishbowl.

>>18628
Spoiled is also an objectively wrong descriptor of Reimu.
She can’t both be spoiled and have below average amounts of money.

>>18628
She's in a worse state, even because next to nobody comes to the shrine to donate, so she has to make ends meet by taking on extermination jobs. I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't get paid for half those jobs, though, because the villagers might expect her to do them for free since she's the Hakurei shrine maiden.

On top of that, the prologue of PCB says that the shrine is just as cold inside as it is outside during the winter. Sure, it was rebuilt in SWR, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's exactly the same as it was before.

Sorry! But Reimu being stupid and poor is canon! Also, she's permanently 16! Source? My gut told me.

>>18627
Who is what?

>Reimu has no guarantee that her successors would hold her same ideals
And? "Well the person after me might be worse" isn't a good justification to keep doing a bad thing and, more importantly, profiting off it.

>early or pre-windows era stuff canon the previous hakurei shrine maidens didn't even return outsiders to the outside world.
??? What does this even mean? The Hakurei barrier wasn't even a thing pre PCB.

>>18628
She is spoiled. She literally never wants for anything and is either incapable of uncaring about the state of others. The entire ending of her fight with Mizuchi shows such a fundamental lack of understanding of others that it makes Marie Antoinette's famous "Let them eat cake" comment seem like solid dietary advice(And yes, I know she didn't actually say that).

>Also, "profiting from the state of Gensokyo"? She's in the same boat as every other human.
No, she isn't. She's above them. Free to life her life however she wants. The fact she can go outside without potentially being murdered by Youkai means that she is in a different boat by default even ignoring the many, MANY examples of people treating the Hakurei Shrine Maiden as different.

>>18629
Below average compared to who? Certainly not the human villagers.

>>18630
Reimu is literally never shown wanting anything. Even her shrine being cold isn't a case of her being unable to afford central heating.

>Also, she's permanently 16! Source? My gut told me.
Did I imply as much? I'm saying we don't know how old she was when she started. Yeah, she would probably still qualify as a child soldier in most cases but there is a difference between a 8 year old and a 16 year old.

>>18631
>Who is what?
>>what’s wrong with Gensokyo
Reimu isn't what's wrong with Gensokyo, I was quoting your Frank Grimes quote.
>And? "Well the person after me might be worse" isn't a good justification to keep doing a bad thing and, more importantly, profiting off it.
It's not, I'm glad we agree on this, but it doesn't really apply to Reimu. She tires to do good and undermines the sages when she believes it's good to do so. That doesn't make her any less responsible for the bad things she's done, but Reimu isn't a bad person. She's a complex person in a complicated position.
Also Reimu's hardly a profiteer. Sure she isn't poor, but she's also a victim of the system, doesn't have the protections the human villagers have, and she's not exactly really well off. It's not like she has a mansion or a palace and just sits on her ass all day doing nothing, she's in a job that she's basically married to for life which puts her in harms way and in uncomfortable positions where she's forced to do things she doesn't want to do.
>??? What does this even mean? The Hakurei barrier wasn't even a thing pre PCB.
I'm talking about the blonde hakurei shrine maiden from pre-retcon DiPP, she's the only previous shrine maiden we know of she didn't return outsider to the outside world when she should have.

>>18633
>Reimu isn't what's wrong with Gensokyo, I was quoting your Frank Grimes quote.
I mean, Yukari is above her but Reimu's attitude certainly doesn't help matters.

>She tires to do good
When?

>She's a complex person in a complicated position.
There is nothing to indicate her position is any more complicated than "She does it because she likes it". You can assume plenty but it is just that: Assumptions. Actual Canon Reimu 1: Profits greatly of her actions. 2: Doesn't seem to have any desire to stop or do good.

>doesn't have the protections the human villagers have,
She has infinitely more. Part of the reason the spellcard rules were created according to PMISS is because nobody can actually kill her.

>which puts her in harms way and in uncomfortable positions where she's forced to do things she doesn't want to do.
Reimu isn't Frodo Baggins suffering his way through his adventure. Having played the games and read the manga nothing is giving me any indication she hates her job or the adventures she goes on. The opposite, in fact. On average she clearly likes dealing with problems. Why wouldn't she? Resolving a incident for her is less dangerous than it would be for most villagers to walk outside after dark.

>I mean, Yukari is above her but Reimu's attitude certainly doesn't help matters.
Well I'm glad we can half agree here.
>When?
Oops, meant tries not tires lol. That's my fault for not spellchecking. But to give you an example, Miko reads her mind and says her goal to achieve peace without bloodshed. In CDS she succeeds in doing this in opposition in Satori and Yukari

>There is nothing to indicate her position is any more complicated than "She does it because she likes it". You can assume plenty but it is just that: Assumptions. Actual Canon Reimu 1: Profits greatly of her actions. 2: Doesn't seem to have any desire to stop or do good.
Aside from the mind reader who says she wants to do good, her stopping incidents that harm people, and her attempts to reach conclusions that don't involve needless bloodshed, aside from how she hides her intentions to not seem weak, aside from her supporting the spellcard rules which exist to minimize bloodshed and come to peaceful conclusions.
Yes, aside from that Reimu has no desire to do good.

>She has infinitely more. Part of the reason the spellcard rules were created according to PMISS is because nobody can actually kill her.
>Resolving a incident for her is less dangerous than it would be for most villagers to walk outside after dark.
More actually the Youkai can't hurt the villagers, they can scare and torment them, but they can't hurt them as long as they are villagers. Non-villagers like Reimu and Marisa have no such protection. Also PMiSS says that the pell card rules partly to exist to make sure Reimu can be safetly defeated by Youkai. That wouldn't exist if she was all powerful, take your head out of the versus wiki Reimu isn't some all powerful god.
She also does show distress at having to kill the Salt Merchant. She doesn't hate her job, but she does want to use to it make sure gensokyo reaches peaceful resolutions without bloodshed.

>>18632
>"Let them eat cake" comment seem like solid dietary advice(And yes, I know she didn't actually say that).
I kind of like this comparison actually, Marie Antoinette is a pretty tragic figure. but quoting something you know is wrong isn't exactly helping your argument. Although Reimu is in a much better position.

>>18632
She is in the same boat as everyone else in the sense that she is basically trapped in a role like every other human in Gensokyo. Her role is more important, sure, but like >>18630 said, she lives a life in poverty and basically solitude (save for Marisa and any other youkai that might keep her company).

>She literally never wants for anything
At the end of the day, she barely has food to spare. She lives in a spartan lifestyle basically devoid of luxury.
I'd say she lives "oh so comfortably" thanks to the generosity of the villagers.
If she doesn't want anything else, it's because she's comfortable living in poverty, not because she has great living conditions. She's probably closer to a hermit than the taoists.

The only thing I can reasonably say you're right in, is that she lives her life as free as she can, as much as her duty lets her do so. But she does not live in confort, and doesn't lead an easy life. She's the one expected to give away her own life against any threat, for the villagers.

>>18632
>She is spoiled. She literally never wants for anything
Not what being spoiled is:
>1. (of a person, especially a child) harmed in character by being treated too leniently or indulgently. "he acts like a spoiled brat"
Not wanting for anything isn't being spoiled. It just means that Reimu is content with what she has for the most part, money-making schemes notwithstanding (And even then, she isn't demanding the money, she's legitimately trying to work for it).

Now contrary to what's usually seen in fanworks and character interpretations, Reimu's not actually the grumpy girl that people see her as. She can get aggressive and rude or blunt, but she doesn't have a foul attitude most of the time. What's seen in the games can be attributed to the fact that she doesn't want to work. EOSD, PSB, and IN have her getting to work at incredibly inconvenient times. The latest release I've played (UM) has her downright docile in comparison since it's midday once the game begins.
It's also reflected in her themes. Dichromatic Lotus Butterfly and The Ground's Colour is Yellow are energetic and quick to suit her reactive and aggressive side. Meanwhile Spring Lane - Colourful path and The World is made of Adorable Things are much less intense and almost relaxing, fitting for her easygoing nature when she's off the job.

We all know goblin Reimu exists because of WAHH, but I think her more dutiful side from FS isn't brought up enough. Seriously, I opened a few random chapters, looked for instances of Reimu appearing, and started reading. All of those random choices involved her doing her job. For reference, it was the fiasco with the Occult Balls, preemptively stopping an urban legend from going out of control, and killing the fortune teller* (That's right, he doesn't deserve Camel Case). Hell, the story's first case is Reimu and Marisa working together to stop an enenra from popping up everywhere and making houses appear to have been lit on fire. They spend days and nights chasing this thing around before they stop it. No wonder why Kosuzu adores Reimu so much.
* Regarding the last one, people seem to think it's a big deal that she killed a harmless youkai that did nothing wrong. The problem is that on a macroscopic scale, this attitude of not fearing youkai can and will spread if it isn't curbed. And what happens if people in Gensokyo stop fearing Youkai? Oops, the barrier fell apart.

Then we have the version of Reimu who is straight up just a nice girl. Despite beating up Sanae and her goddess, she still invites her over to the shrine and lets her set up a "branch shrine" and just gives her a stack of palladium because she can. The three fairies intentionally annoy and fight her because they saw a pattern of her befriending her enemies and it ultimately ends up working out. While being ostensibly jailed/arrested, Shinmyouyaru makes her a kimono in the inchling's size just because she likes her. Then Reimu finds a way to wear it instead of disposing of it.

People inside and outside of the universe seem to not give Reimu the recognition/acknowledgement she deserves. The villagers had Reimu and Marisa solving their problems exclusively before the Moriya shrine showed up, and even when two individuals skilled and strong enough to solve incidents show up and live in (is Miko in the village?), their only participation in incidents is in HM. Yet Reimu doesn't seem to get long-term, consistent visitors to her shrine that bother donating. It doesn't help that the shrine is way out of the village. Still, she seems not to care too much and leaves the two other factions to their own devices. In this way, she shows shades of humility and maturity, the latter of which would be nice to see more explicitly (Her talking down Mizuchi and saving Sumireko come to mind).

In terms of appearance, I'd say Moe Harukawa's fighting game art is the best she's looked. I specifically like her longer hair and flowing sleeves she wears. Also she looks great with her hair down. (https://mangadex.org/chapter/28da617f-29aa-4a80-8cb3-24df9f7767e9/16 and pic related). I'm so glad she has a ton of danbooru fanart btw. It also helps that she wears my favourite colour.

As for gameplay, the fighting games make her very easy to learn with good combos and the use of barriers in her attacks is very nice. She also shows skills that don't seem to pop up in other media AFAIK like teleportation, Rain Dance (melee ofuda attack), and her ofuda clone technique (which I've only seen in MoP). The danmaku games have her as the standard easy boss killer due to the nature of her chasing amulets but I prefer using the needles since I like the idea of using them better. And they do more damage over a wider AOE. I kind of want to see a final boss Reimu in the danmaku games to see how crazy ZUN will allow himself to make her attack.

All of her themes are great but her IN theme will always be the best. It's one of the few pieces of Touhou music that sounds better than any of the remixes I've heard. The first half-minute is complex, elegant, and aggressive, fitting for an introduction to fighting the crimson slasher Reimu. The theme alternates between complex piano (at least for me, fuck trying to play that by ear) and far simpler sections, which indicates the differences between the simple side of Reimu who just likes chilling out, and the business side of Reimu who is currently about to ruin your 1CC run.

>>18637
Marisa is more ruthless than Reimu, she killed that baby shoe killing Youkai once when Kasen or Reimu would have spared it.

>>18638
>Marisa is more ruthless than Reimu, she killed that baby shoe stealing Youkai once when Kasen or Reimu would have spared it.
oops, also that's from FS chapter 13.

>>18635
>Miko reads her mind and says her goal to achieve peace without bloodshed.
She's literally complicit in mass murder. The very idea of peace between humans and Youkai in the context of Gensokyo is suffering for the humans. This is, at best, highlighting how incredibly spoiled she is.

>she barely has food to spare.
Stop looking at memes and actually pay attention to canon. She is never shown wanting for food, or anything else for that matter. Any time she needs to buy something, she can. Her schemes to make money consistently work, she is shown organizing huge festivals that presumably make a lot of bank. Yukari drops cash in her box.

> She lives in a spartan lifestyle basically devoid of luxury.
She lives in a huge pretty shrine where she's basically given anything she wants. She can afford whatever luxury she desires, like books or alcohol. The fact she doesn't want a lot doesn't change that.

>But she does not live in confort, and doesn't lead an easy life.
Her life is so easy she can just walk over a river and fish form a bridge under her feet.

>>18637
Reimu is spoiled because her life is incredibly easy and she seems fundamentally incapable of what it's like to live a life where everything is simply handed to her. Any kind of bad behavior she engages in is excuses or sees her suffer no serious repercussions. And, going by the PC-98 games, this has always been the case.

>Not wanting for anything isn't being spoiled.
Yes it is. If you are handed everything you could possibly want just because you exist then you are spoiled. It means you don't understand what it's like to work hard, to be a normal person. That perfectly sums up Reimu. She doesn't understand what it's like to actually have to work for anything. To not have amazing superpowers. To now have people fawn over you and coddle you just because you are the Hakurei shrine maiden.

>What's seen in the games can be attributed to the fact that she doesn't want to work.
I... Have we played the same game? She isn't grumpy at all in the actual games. She's snarky, carefree, and easygoing. This is why I don't buy the "Reimu's job is so miserable" argument. She isn't miserable at all in any of the games, or even the manga. In fact, I'll go so far as to say she's generally having a blast. Not even in a "You enjoy the killing, Snake" kind of way. She's enjoying it because she is at no actual risk.

>People inside and outside of the universe seem to not give Reimu the recognition/acknowledgement she deserves.
The villagers not fucking publicly gutting her the next time she walks inside their town is a staggering act of mercy. Even if she isn't as responsible as, say, Yukari, she is still one of the top 5 people in all of Gensokyo most responsible for keeping them all trapped against their will. If I was a human villager I would probably make it my life duty to send her to a early grave as soon as possible out of spiteful revenge.

>The villagers had Reimu and Marisa solving their problems exclusively
They had Youkai exterminators back then but they seem to have been retconned away and nowadays they ask Reimu to solve all of their problems.

Now, there isn't actually any problem with arguing, or even getting heated, but I want to advise you against doing what's happening right now. The Reimu hater is pretty much reiterating the same points over and over, and the Reimu defender has no choice but to rebuke them in the same way over and over. That does not lead to a very interesting discussion. It basically amounts to "she is"-"she's not"-"yes, she is"-"no, she's not". If you want to dunk on a character, but only have a limited amount of arguments, try looking at it in a new way and finding something else to hate. The same goes for defending a beloved character against an unjust hater's brazen slander. Be creative and keep it fresh. Either that, or make a single in-depth post to get it out of your system and be happy with what you said.
Happy arguing!

>>18642
Look, anon, I get what you are saying and I don't want to keep repeating the same few points either. The main issue I have overall is that a lot of the arguments in favor of Reimu rely on a lot of assumptions and just plain weird opinions that really make me question if this person has actually played the game (Reimu grumpy? What?).

I'll ask this of the person defending Reimu: Going PURELY off established canon facts. Why do you think Reimu works as a Hakurei Shrine Maiden and what does that say about her? Do you disagree with Akyuu's very explicit description of Reimu as privileged and important in Perfect Memento? Do you think Reimu enjoys resolving incidents and if not what are the indications as such (Use actual dialogue, please)?

>>18640
>She's literally complicit in mass murder. The very idea of peace between humans and Youkai in the context of Gensokyo is suffering for the humans. This is, at best, highlighting how incredibly spoiled she is.
I'm not going to defend outsiders falling into Gensokyo and getting killed by the man-eating Youkai population but Reimu isn't responsible for that and returns outsiders to the outside world. But I wouldn't call her goal spoiled, it's idealistic. Achieving any ending without any bloodshed is impossible, but Reimu tries, that's what she wants, tries to attain, but doesn't have.
That's called internal conflict.
If you want to lay responsibility at someone's feet for Gensokyo, lay it at Yukari, Okina, and Kasen’s.
But yeah she's complicit in the murder of outsiders via supporting the system. Also it's not like she doesn't know Youkai conflict with human, that's her entire problem with them and when a human turns into a Youkai or gets possessed with one she's the one that has to do the killing.

>A bunch of stuff I didn't write so I'm not responding to
K

Perfect Momento in Strange Sense describes Reimu as https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Reimu_Hakurei
I think your talking about the
>Due to her easygoing appearance, it's impossible to tell whether she realizes this or not, but the Hakurei shrine maidens really do have all of Gensokyo under their thumbs
Zanmu has similar lines, much to Reimu’s confusion where she calls her the ultimate power in Gensokyo or something to that effect. In this case, I think the term here is “Hakurei shrine maiden,” the office of the Hakurei has institutional power but committed here is that the Hakurei is replaceable. PMiSS is written by Akyuu(a Yukari stooge) and edited by Yukari.

>They had Youkai exterminators back then but they seem to have been retconned away and nowadays they ask Reimu to solve all of their problems.
Not exactly a retcon, the villagers did have exorcists but Aya implies that the creation of the spellcard rules and Gensokyo become more peaceful.
In other words, the spellcard rules were successful in making Gensokyo a more peaceful place, meaning there is less of a need for

>>18643
>Why do you think Reimu works as a Hakurei Shrine Maiden and what does that say about her?
She works as the Hakurei Shrine Maiden because it's her job. Killing Youkai is the only thing she's good at and she’s been doing it from a very young age, she doesn't have any skills applicable outside of her profession (although due to her floating ability she probably wouldn't die.) and she has a sense of responsibility about Gensokyo. She's the Hakurei and she believes that means she has to protect Gensokyo and the human village.
In short, she's responsible.

>Do you disagree with Akyuu's very explicit description of Reimu as privileged and important in Perfect Memento?
I answered that above, I think the Hakurei has a lot of institutional power, at least theoretically. But PMiSS also points out the Spellcard rules came from powerful Youkai, probably the sages that created Gensokyo and used the vampire incident to push their agenda forward.
An agenda that involves a more peaceful Gensokyo. Akyuu is writing propaganda edited by Yukari here so you have to take that into account when reading PMiSS, she's not going to make Reimu look weak or admit she's ultimately replaceable in her role as the Hakurei.
The most recent person to call Rienu some type of all powerful figure in Gensokyo is Zanmu. The same Zanmu who doesn't know about the sages and confuses Reimu when she calls her all power, the same Zanmu ZUN calls fraudulent.

>Do you think Reimu enjoys resolving incidents and if not what are the indications as such (Use actual dialogue, please)?
Yeah, sometimes she finds it annoying and thinks it isn't a big deal like in HSiFS. But I think she mostly shifts between finding them annoying and enjoying dealing with Youkai depending on the situation.

>>18645
>Youkai population but Reimu isn't responsible for that and returns outsiders to the outside world.
She does that, far as we can tell, for the same reason why she kills Humans who turn into youkai. It's her job.

>If you want to lay responsibility at someone's feet for Gensokyo, lay it at Yukari, Okina, and Kasen’s.
I agree that they are more responsible. But, ultimately, Reimu is still complicit and she's high enough at the top that it's hard to argue "She's just following orders"

> the office of the Hakurei has institutional power but committed here is that the Hakurei is replaceable.
The extent that they are replaceable is ambiguous outside of the fact that they clearly are. But that really doesn't excuse her behavior. A rich ceo destroying a rain forest or small village for profit could just as easily argue "Well, somebody will do it eventually" and be just as right as Reimu. Is that justified?

>Not exactly a retcon, the villagers did have exorcists but Aya implies that the creation of the spellcard rules and Gensokyo become more peaceful.
PMISS not only implies they are still around but that most people can use spellcards. This seems to have been ignored by later works, which is what I would argue is the retcon. Them having gone away is at odds with the description of the human village we get in earlier works.

>Killing Youkai is the only thing she's good at and she’s been doing it from a very young age, she doesn't have any skills applicable outside of her profession
She's, what, twenty? I've seen people jump careers for less. Besides, despite all the memes, she isn't actually THAT bad at her religious duty. She could start worshipping Amaterasu or whatever and still have a viable career.

>and she has a sense of responsibility about Gensokyo.
Why would she have a sense of responsibility for a place that has harmed so many people? A place whose existence, even if you want to argue she isn't explicitly profiting off, she requires to maintain her income? Don't you find that rather suspect?

>Akyuu is writing propaganda edited by Yukari here so you have to take that into account when reading PMiSS, she's not going to make Reimu look weak or admit she's ultimately replaceable in her role as the Hakurei.
I can accept that but my question is on what is your assumption that she is easily replaceable come from? Assuming it's a bloodline thing, unless Reimu has a big hidden family out there, there don't seem to be many viable candidates around.

And again, ignoring any questions of right or wrong and if Reimu could do more. Considering the severe institutional power the Hakurei Shrine Maidens have is it not fair to say that Reimu IS profiting off her position? At best she is taking active steps to make sure she isn't exploiting the people. Which is debatable considering Akyuu's line also calls into question the extent to which she is aware of her own knowledge.

Overall, to go back to my earlier point, I'm not trying to portray Reimu as totally evil. My point is that she's spoiled. She's a Youkai exterminator whose never at any real risk. She largely enjoys the adventures she goes on. And while it's possible she has good motives for trying to keep the position, there is undeniably a element of self interest due to her lack of other life skills. All of that put together paints a picture of a women who MIGHT mean well but has also lived a life of luxury and privilege that makes it difficult for her to relate to normal people.

I compared her to Homer simpson earlier and the key reason for that is ultimately because like Homer, at least in the episode with Frank Grimes, she's blissfully unaware of how good she seems to have it.

>>18646
>A rich ceo destroying a rain forest or small village for profit could just as easily argue "Well, somebody will do it eventually" and be just as right as Reimu. Is that justified?
But Reimu isn’t doing that, she prevents outsiders from getting killed and only kills youkai who break the rules or humans who become youkai.

>PMISS not only implies they are still around but that most people can use spellcards. This seems to have been ignored by later works, which is what I would argue is the retcon. Them having gone away is at odds with the description of the human village we get in earlier works.
Well it’s only kind of retcon, there still were exorcists in the village. Just in the past when they were needed.

>Why would she have a sense of responsibility for a place that has harmed so many people? A place whose existence, even if you want to argue she isn't explicitly profiting off, she requires to maintain her income? Don't you find that rather suspect?
Because she’s the Hakurei Shrine Maiden. Whether she chose it or not people or depending on her and she fulfills her duty. Isn’t that what real responsibility is? Taking a burden onto herself and being responsible for it, Reimu’s job requires her to kill people, something she explicitly doesn’t want to do. But she does it because she believes Gensokyo deserves to exist and killing herself or abandoning her post aren’t really options.
Besides if she doesn’t support Gensokyo going then the Youkai will die out alongside the extinct species of animals. Reimu considers Youkai people and she doesn’t want them all to die.

>I can accept that but my question is on what is your assumption that she is easily replaceable come from? Assuming it's a bloodline thing, unless Reimu has a big hidden family out there, there don't seem to be many viable candidates around.
Aya offhandedly mentions replacing her in SSiB, we don’t know either way if she’s an orphan or has a family but replacing the Hakurei is something that is required eventually and Aya seems to indicate that it wouldn’t be a problem to get a replacement if Reimu died during the events of SSiB.
So yes, I think either way Reimu is replaceable.

>Overall, to go back to my earlier point, I'm not trying to portray Reimu as totally evil. My point is that she's spoiled. She's a Youkai exterminator whose never at any real risk. She largely enjoys the adventures she goes on. And while it's possible she has good motives for trying to keep the position, there is undeniably a element of self interest due to her lack of other life skills. All of that put together paints a picture of a women who MIGHT mean well but has also lived a life of luxury and privilege that makes it difficult for her to relate to normal people.
>I compared her to Homer simpson earlier and the key reason for that is ultimately because like Homer, at least in the episode with Frank Grimes, she's blissfully unaware of how good she seems to have it.
Home doesn’t really have it good imo, it’s just how his cartoon reality functions. Although like that how Reimu’s reality functions is also to her benefit. The people that would abuse or replace her want to keep her around and share her goals, so in a meta and in universe sense she exists in a pretty privileged position as far as protagonists go. The Simpson writers kind of touch on this in the comentary for the Frank Grimes episode, the point of the episode isn't that Homer has it easy or that he's bad, the episode isn't even trying to say anything in particular, they just went off of the prompt of.
>What if a normal real life human was in the Simpsons
and the plot built itself out from there as they explored what would happen. Homer is really only blessed in the same way the other inhabitants of his narrative/reality are in general due to not being real life people.
That’s why I think the more traditional heroes of Reimu or Cirno work better for a more conventionally heroic story. But Reimu does have a lot of room for angst if you want to write that like I do. She’s blessed by the narrative and has a super power that makes her life easy, or at least easy when she calms down.
But like from an entirely in universe point of view, the villagers don’t donate to her, and we don’t know if her floating ability is connected to the Hakurei position. We only know her shrine maiden abilities are.
Also I don’t think Reimu is all powerful, and as a non-village human she doesn’t have their protections. If a strong enough youkai--like lets say a sage or someone comparable like Koishi--then she’s dead. Of course Reimu has a lot of other friends and she’s probably team up with a Sage in that situation but the point is she is mortal, she is human, and despite the power she has she does put herself at risk and in positions she doesn’t like for the sake of her responsibilities.

>>18647
>she prevents outsiders from getting killed
Like? Do you have any examples?

>Because she’s the Hakurei Shrine Maiden.
Which, to me, is a inherently evil position. I find it hard to sympathize with anybody in that position. And the fact that she is so blatantly profiting off it makes it harder still. At best it's excusable if you just assume she's stupid and spoiled, and doesn't realize the harm she's causing.

>Gensokyo deserves to exist
Then she is a accessory to mass murder. Which, whatever, if you don't care you don't care. But I find it kind of rich to argue she's trying her best when she's also trying to keep a place around that causes a lot of harm to people.

>Aya offhandedly mentions replacing her in SSiB,
Yes. Which is the best argument for her being easily replaceable.

>so in a meta and in universe sense she exists in a pretty privileged position as far as protagonists go.
That's part of why I compare the two.

>If a strong enough youkai--like lets say a sage or someone comparable like Koishi--then she’s dead.
Again, not impossible but it requires a lot of assumptions.

>>18648
>Like? Do you have any examples?
Aside from it being said she does so we don't have any examples. Same thing with humans getting killed and eaten so po-tay-to, po-ta-to.
>Yes. Which is the best argument for her being easily replaceable.
Well I'm glad we can agree of that fact that she's easily replaceable.
>Then she is a accessory to mass murder. Which, whatever, if you don't care you don't care. But I find it kind of rich to argue she's trying her best when she's also trying to keep a place around that causes a lot of harm to people.
Well I already explained my point of view here, Reimu is replaceable and she's a complicated person who tries to make the best of a bad situation. Ideally no one could be harmed but the people who are responsible for that in the first place are still alive, more responsible, and also actively trying to fix that issue.
I would agree with you if the Sages didn't care and nobody was trying to make a better Gensokyo, but that's not we see in canon.
>At best it's excusable if you just assume she's stupid and spoiled, and doesn't realize the harm she's causing.
I don't agree with this at all. Reimu doesn't lack experience or wisdom, being the Hakurei Shrine Maiden is her profession and she knows the human cost of Gensokyo existing, she's the person who has to execute rule breakers.
Calling her spoiled and stupid downplays her responsibility in the situation. Her actions are informed by the things you claim she's stupid and spoiled about, and her supernatural instincts.

I wanted to comment on your argument, maybe even dive in... now that I've read it — we're thinking in such different paradigms it's nearly pointless. Simply look at this:
> people seem to think it's a big deal that she killed a harmless youkai that did nothing wrong. The problem is that on a macroscopic scale, this attitude of not fearing youkai can and will spread if it isn't curbed. And what happens if people in Gensokyo stop fearing Youkai? Oops, the barrier fell apart.
Can't you see the horror? Forced ignorance, forced hypocrisy of fearing something one cannot reasonably fear anymore, a feudal-like duty only a few privileged people like Reimu and Marisa are exempt from? You talk about achieving "peace without bloodshed" — is such peace truly worth it? And anyway, what bloodshed? Incidents are theater, caused only to be defeated by one designated to the role of protagonist, for entertainment of everyone involved and standing by — perhaps only with a few exceptions like Lunar Capital relocation plan, and even then there are questions. Nobody is in danger, nobody risks anything, nothing is at stake, and in the end everyone comes off stage and everything returns to status quo. (By the way, it's against canonical text to say Reimu was threatened without spell card rules — pic, PMiSS, Reimu's chapter — it's youkai who felt threatened). The only ones to ever be killed in Touhou are those defying the stasis and the hypocrisy — unless they start to behave, anyway, like we saw with Mizuchi.
...but instead of trying to think about bigger picture we got Western-style moralizing about "good persons", "evil persons", squabbling over qualifications of mass murder charges and comparing characters against designated evils of the year. Disappointment.
Though, some of your interpretations you two? three? came up with as arguments are positively curious, like somehow divining Reimu's age from PC-98 games. Or >>18633 — DiPP C62 story's shrine maiden as blonde? And Hakurei? Not returning somebody she should have? And what exactly "pre-retcon" means here? What was retconned with what? Please tell me, that's genuinely interesting.

Anyway, to answer the more interesting replies:

>>18616
The more I look on this pic, the more this lace attaching the sleeves to the shirt annoys me. It's ugly, it does not belong on human clothing, it's all the worse since it's so visible against red undershirt or how to call it. Overall her clothing looks like standard real life miko clothing but worse, mainly because of lace. And it's too baggy, just as I said — I'm not at all against baggy attires, but on a girl in an informal setting (and not, like, at court)... meh.

>>18608
> Do you think we will ever know anything from the Hakurei patron god (other than "it's disappointed/angry by the lack of faith")?
Some minor details are probable given how ZUN's storytelling works, but nothing major and revealing. It's quite intentionally vague by looks of it.
But also speaking of Hakurei god — I once had an idea after reading a discussion where people argued that Reimu has weakened in her few recent appearances that Hakurei god is in fact dead. Reimu is leeching powers off a corpse, it's just the dead god has left behind such tremendous power it was enough for the entire game series and only very recently it showed the signs of running out. One can make a story around that, I suppose.
Anyway, what ideas about Hakurei god in general people have? Also, could one agree with the assumption mentioned above — that Reimu's powers are weakening recently? I wasn't quite convinced by that discussion personally.

>>18650
>a feudal-like duty only a few privileged people like Reimu and Marisa are exempt from?
I would agree with Marisa, but Reimu literally has a feudal-like duty.
>The only ones to ever be killed in Touhou are those defying the stasis and the hypocrisy — unless they start to behave, anyway, like we saw with Mizuchi.
I mean Mizuchi was preforming flase flag attacks and trying to start another war between humans and Youkai when Gensokyo was forming. Of course she would get dead, at the end of the say she only wanted an excuse to justify her one-sided grudge against the Hakurei. Also you're wrong, it's implied and said outsiders die if they aren't returned and don't become part of the human village, so there is bloodshed.
Also I thought it was obvious, the bloodshed Reimu wants to prevent is the bloodshed between humans and Youkai. All of it, that's why the spellcard rules exist, to reduce the threat against humans. That's why she returns outsiders to the outside world, that's why she tries to take preventative measure to keep people from breaking the rules and spares them when possible.
Reimu is a huge softie on the inside and she wants to achieve the impossible, peace without bloodshed.
>"pre-retcon" means here? What was retconned with what? Please tell me, that's genuinely interesting.
"pre-retcon" means here? What was retconned with what? Please tell me, that's genuinely interesting.
As in DiPP was released again with a different story.

>>18650
>The more I look on this pic, the more this lace attaching the sleeves to the shirt annoys me. It's ugly, it does not belong on human clothing, it's all the worse since it's so visible against red undershirt or how to call it. Overall her clothing looks like standard real life miko clothing but worse, mainly because of lace.
Well, firstly, NO. WRONG. BOOOOO. You are not invited to my birthday party anymore.
But, on all seriousness, to clear things up: her sleeves here are summer jinbei type-sleeves, pic related. Not lace, not really. Just knitted bits.

>Though, some of your interpretations you two? three? came up with as arguments are positively curious, like somehow divining Reimu's age from PC-98 games. Or >>18633 — DiPP C62 story's shrine maiden as blonde? And Hakurei? Not returning somebody she should have? And what exactly "pre-retcon" means here? What was retconned with what? Please tell me, that's genuinely interesting.
I had the same questions here, actually. The response in >>18651,
>As in DiPP was released again with a different story.
Is quite odd. Like... What do you think a retcon is? This is a rhethorical question. Whatever your defenition is, the C63 version isn't a retcon. It's just a different take - it doesn't contradict anything from the C62 version, they exist just fine alongside each other.

>I once had an idea after reading a discussion where people argued that Reimu has weakened in her few recent appearances that Hakurei god is in fact dead. Reimu is leeching powers off a corpse, it's just the dead god has left behind such tremendous power it was enough for the entire game series and only very recently it showed the signs of running out.
Okay, that's kind of awesome. I wonder how it died... I mean, it was such a powerful thing. Can such powerful things really die naturally? I wonder what the corpse is like, how it decays, and whether its presence is still felt like a living god's. Its meat also makes me weirdly curious...

Also, good job, people, I think we've reached bump limit with this one. I guess it's to be expected because of the voting, but still.

>>18652
>the C63 version isn't a retcon. It's just a different take
I see it as one, it's one case where we have an exact 1:1 replacement for a story and ZUN doesn't seem to remember it or consider it canon.
More so than PMiSS if conflicts with the current state of Gensokyo and a completely different Reimu unrecognizable from any of her modern forms

>>18652
Well the issue is, it doesn't look like jinbei seams at all, it's literally lace threaded through very large holes, which even look like they're framed with metal or something. You hold a large canvas for an ad billboard or something like this, not human sleeves.

> I wonder what the corpse is like
I thought it is immaterial just like gods are normally immaterial in "life"? Perhaps yin-yang orbs still act as goshintai for Hakurei god, even in death, so it's "stored" there. As for how it could die — it doesn't have to be natural death after all. I'm thinking of Izanami, perhaps due to some wound causing "sickness" as well?

>>18651
> the bloodshed Reimu wants to prevent is the bloodshed between humans and Youkai.
There is no such bloodshed. Not anymore. There is nothing to prevent and to achieve.

>>18653
>it's one case where we have an exact 1:1 replacement for a story
No, not really, that's not how it works. I do not wish to continue the yesitis-noitsnot-yesitis-noitsnot, so please understand that ZUN didn't aim to replace anything, or sweep anything under the rug, or anything like that. Read the stories. They're genuinely just different takes. The C63 version is a microfiction anthology. The C62 version is a mystery-slasher. Having your own interpretation is great, but arguing that your interpretation is "how it truly is" in such a vague case is quite brazen, needlessly categorical and overall not the way to go.

>a completely different Reimu unrecognizable from any of her modern forms
In what way is she unrecognizable here? I'm mad curious. By the way, anyone can chime in and say whether she's like herself here or not. It's a Reimu discussion, after all!

>>18654
Gensokyo is a place where outsiders die in order to date the hunger of man-eating Youkai.
There is still bloodshed in Gensokyo, not to mention criminals like the Youkai and humans who break the rules. Like the Youkai that possessed that Salt Merchant.

>>18655
Isn't the purpose of this thread to talk about characters? I have one view of Reimu, the other person has another, and we talk about those views.
But I don't think it's canon, just like I don't think PC98 is canon. To answer your question, the thing that's different about Reimu is that she allowed outsiders to enter Gensokyo, saw them, and did nothing.
Which goes against her established character.
I don't think the Reimu who returns outsiders to the outside world and works to avoid bloodshed would write the passage in the pic rel.

>>18654
>Well the issue is, it doesn't look like jinbei seams at all, it's literally lace threaded through very large holes, which even look like they're framed with metal or something.
It's still jinbei sleeves to me... I've always attributed this, much like other such weird Touhou costuming details, to ZUN just not being very good at drawing clothes and not understanding their construction very well, lol. At this point, looking past it is almost instinctive. It's always rather interesting to see takes from people who take the way he draws at face value rather than assuming a certain element of abstraction by default.
Also, I wouldn't really call it baggy? Sure, it's not skintight, and the skirt (I presume it's a skirt and not actual hakama) and the sleeves are rather loose, but the chest/torso part is fairly form-fitting. Like, again, it all reads as ZUN art jank to me, and not any actual property of the character's clothing or body shape.
By the way, Zun004.jpg has my second favourite Reimu outfit. The sleeves can even be tightened for convenience - that's what those red strings are actually for, did you know that?

>Perhaps yin-yang orbs still act as goshintai for Hakurei god, even in death, so it's "stored" there.
Ah, makes sense.
You know, that makes the first game kind of really funny in retrospect... And maybe a little scary, considering the Gatekeeper's appearance.

I seriously don't understand how you people don't see that Reimu is spoiled. just look at her most recent appearance - EUGH. Her skin? Those eyes? The way her lips bulge out and are also discoloured?

If she crossed my path I'd slice her open with my esparda like the rotten fruit she is. Take that, bitch! This is what I’m gonna do to your yokai friends, too! This is for humanity! This is for the human village! Beloved characters such as peasant, merchant, not you Kosuzu you race traitor whore, noble... the list goes on.

This might be a really fucking weird analogy, but she's basically how Sneed and Chuck view Homer. "Well well, look at the shrine maiden pulling up in her fancy outside-world rickshaw!" "This rickshaw was made in China." "Well pardon us, Miss Gu~cci loafers." "I got these shoes off a corpse!" "Well, la-dee-da, Ms house Hieda manicure." "Well sorry, i believe in supporting a FUCKING REGIME that LITERALLY KILLS THOUSANDS."

To add to the discussion substantively.
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Bohemian_Archive_in_Japanese_Red/Music_Columns#The_Wonderous_Everyday_Life_of_the_Flying_Shrine_Maiden
>In particular, I have no idea what made me come up with the title of this song. I think the shrine maiden mentioned in the title is Reimu. It's Reimu, but it's not written in a way that really reflects her. I suppose that my past self valued this song a little too highly.
So it is canon, but it's also out of character for Reimu.
Make of that what you will.

>>18649
Aside from it being said she does so we don't have any examples. Same thing with humans getting killed and eaten so po-tay-to, po-ta-to.
We have constant mentions of humans being murdered in Gensokyo.

>Yes. Which is the best argument for her being easily replaceable.
I'm not agreeing, I'm saying it's the best argument. I think it's more plausible Aya is just being dumb.

>Well I already explained my point of view here, Reimu is replaceable and she's a complicated person who tries to make the best of a bad situation. Ideally no one could be harmed but the people who are responsible for that in the first place are still alive, more responsible, and also actively trying to fix that issue.
What fix? Show me the fix. I can on some level understand the argument that she is replacable and therefore doesn't have much of a choice. But that is not the same thing as actively trying to fix the situation. Any time any situation to improve the status quo appears she violently beats it down with no angst.

>Calling her spoiled and stupid downplays her responsibility in the situation. Her actions are informed by the things you claim she's stupid and spoiled about, and her supernatural instincts.
I'm fine with that, but that also means she's just fucking evil and screwing over people for personal profit. She wasn't angsting over murdering fortune teller. She clearly enjoyed it. If you assume she knows about Gensokyo, it almost looks like she's sadistically executing' somebody.

>>18651
>but Reimu literally has a feudal-like duty.
How does that validate her? Can mass murder be justified just because you are following orders? Especially when, at the end of the day, you greatly profit form those orders?

>the bloodshed Reimu wants to prevent is the bloodshed between humans and Youkai.
That peace is a mistake. Better the humans and youkai go to war as long as that war ends with the youkai dead and gone.

>>18659
Genuinly: Random village mobs are more likeable to me than Kosuzu.

>>18660
You know, comments like these only go show that thinking in terms of "canon" and "non-canon" is rather narrow and restrictive in the end. Keeping your interpretation internally consistent is one thing, but striving to define everything as concretely "canon" or concretely "non-canon" is rather excessive...

>>18661
>We have constant mentions of humans being murdered in Gensokyo.
That's kind of the joke, we have mentions of both and I believe both.
>I'm not agreeing, I'm saying it's the best argument. I think it's more plausible Aya is just being dumb.
She's a thousand plus year old youkai who's probably seen the previous Hakurei Shrine Maiden. In this case she's talking to herself and she has no reason to lie so I think she's being truthful.
>What fix? Show me the fix.
FS with Kosuzu, also her returning outsiders outside. Also it's not like she dislikes or stops people who want to change the status quo, they're just annoying when they go about it in an incident causing way. Plus there's nobody that really wants to risk all of Gensokyo for the sake of the human village.
Heck she even likes Byakuren, she speaks bad about her due to Byakuren's failure to live up to her own ideals but she rates all of the Myouren Temple Youkai highly. Even if she just rates Nue highly due to Nue giving Reimu a lot to talk about. Besides that fact that the status quo has been improving and getting better for the villagers, Youkai have decreased in aggression towards humans overall. So there's not much for her to do on that front aside from what she already does with upholding the spellcard rules and killing rulebreakers.
If it came down to it I think she's choose the human village in a heartbeat, but it's not really that extreme of a situation. Aside from discontent rabble rousers like Aya who want to return to the days of more Youkai aggression all the large political figures in Gensokyo are already moving in the direction of her goal.
>She wasn't angsting over murdering fortune teller. She clearly enjoyed it.
Yeah, she doesn't rate people who give up their humanity and risk the status quo like that very highly. She considered what he got a just punishment, at least that's the impression I got compared to how she reacted to the Salt Merchants death.
Anyways as we've been asked to be more substantive/interesting, I'll say I don't think a naive Reimu is bad , but I don't think it's very representative of canon and I prefer my naive Reimu's to have a more extreme personality. Like in the doujins "Rainmaker" and "The World is Not Enough." Although as I've said I prefer an angsy, more Zounose or Ashiyama Bungaku. I really like grim, dark, gritty...etc Gensokyo's with a lot of political drama.
For that an angsty Reimu as a protagonist is great, of course the level of angst I like depends on the story. Really it comes down to taste and interpretation at the end of the day.

>>18662
Oops forgot to reply to this.
>How does that validate her?
It's a factor to take into account but it doesn't wash her hands of the blood she's spilled.
>That peace is a mistake. Better the humans and youkai go to war as long as that war ends with the youkai dead and gone.
Well I just don't find those types of war stories interesting and don't really want to write one. Although you can always write one yourself, stories ideas and character discussion are ideally the end goals of this thread. On that note.
>>18654
>Perhaps yin-yang orbs still act as goshintai for Hakurei god, even in death, so it's "stored" there.
When I first heard of the Hakurei God being dead I thought it was kind of an uninteresting idea, but this is really cool.
Imagine a sort of body horror story where, like Okuu, Reimu has to become a living shrine to the Hakurei god but in this case to preserve it.
The political ramifications would be cool and I can imagine her doing something pretty epic either way you take the story.
It's legit really metal.

>>18664
>that the status quo has been improving and getting better for the villagers,
That's very debatable. Gensokyo has been getting consistently worse, but that's MOSTLY retcons. And despite Reimu's claims that Youkai are nicer... I don't see it. They are still cruel, malicious, sociopathic, unpleasant, and without any love or care in their heart for human villagers and prone to murdering outsiders.

At best they went from "Totally evil" to merely "Irredeemably evil".

>If it came down to it I think she's choose the human village in a heartbeat
I really don't know why you think that way when she's been doing the exact opposite her entire life.

>and risk the status quo like that very highly
Then she isn't in favor of the human village, now is she?

>Well I just don't find those types of war stories interesting and don't really want to write one.
Look, you already admitted you don't think it redeems her from the mistakes she made. Which is fine. I just find it weird you still think she would pick the side of the human village when everything indicates she would not and never has.

>>18667
>Gensokyo has been getting consistently worse
>Because the situation's never been that extreme. There's never been a total threat trying to eliminate the human village she couldn't solve without having to kill someone.
But I think if it came down to, yeah she's choose the human village, also I don't agree that the situation's been getting worse for the village.
>Then she isn't in favor of the human village, now is she?
>They are still cruel, malicious, sociopathic, unpleasant, and without any love or care in their heart for human villagers and prone to murdering outsiders.
I mean, the status quo protects the human village at all costs and the lives of the human villagers. Risking the status quo kind of risk that as well. It's pretty safe but considering Reimu's instincts are supernaturally strong I trust her on this one. She's not he only one, Byakuren, Bishamonten, and Yukari are all trying to work towards a future where humans and youkai can live in harmony. Sure you can doubt Byakuren and Yukari, but Bishamonten? That guy ascended to a high plan of existence due to being so good at killing Youkai. It's not gonna be easy or fast, it doesn't erase the harm they caused, but I think it's possible and it has been slowly happening.
Anyway, as we're getting on people nerves I feel like this is where the end of this ritual is.
So, what type of doujins do you like, do you have any works on THP, JP, or AO3 you'd like to share.

>>18668
>So, what type of doujins do you like, do you have any works on THP, JP, or AO3 you'd like to share.
I guess he doesn't like any type of doujins and doesn't have any works he'd like to share.

>>18669
For what it's worth, I think he would like the Destruction of Gensokyo on Wattpad.
But that's only what I would recommend to him, I don't know if he's read it.