>>16403
tengu more like nose goblin amirite

The Nihon Shoki is similar to the Kojiki, being an ancient collection of Japanese myths. Included in it are the genealogies of Shinto gods and the Japanese world creation myth. I haven't read past the beginning, so I can't say much more about it, but its an excellent historical resource.

I've also heard in passing that Shin Megami Tensei influenced the seires? Beyond some surface level stuff about both being about mythological creatures I don't see it. ZUN talked about it in this interview briefly

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Strange_Creators_of_Outer_World/Introduction_of_Previous_Works/Mountain_of_Faith/Mountain_of_Faith_Interview_with_ZUN

To say that he won't be adding any monotheistic deities to Touhou. But beyond that i can't find nothing else.

The interview also has this gem of a quote: "You might as well have a fighting game with Christ vs. Muhammad. I'd like to see that."

>>18049
Yes, Takemoto Izumi's works are a pretty big influence on early Touhou! Fans seem to sort of vaguely understand that, but don't actually pay it much mind. It's probably because nowadays, ZUN seems to have stepped away from his former Takemotoness, even though the foundation is still there.
In games 2-6, though, and in 1's endings, it's felt very strongly, and persists to a smaller extent up to... About 9, I think, I don't know much about the new games. It's largely the tone and light-hearted trouble-solving plots. He borrowed a lot of small things too. Elis, Louise, Ruukoto are all borrowed names, and the characters don't even really resemble each other, he was just taking stuff he liked, really. There are also a lot of random Takemoto quotes thrown in, ones that aren't even that significant, like some of Rikako's dialogue in her endings. Naturally, there is a lot of aesthetic infuence too.
>I think it's worth taking a second look at the "silly outfits" of our favourite girls with a finer and more appreciative eye for what non-textual sentiments might have compelled ZUN to design them that way
A lot of old works characters are pretty straightforwardly visually borrowed from Takemoto - Yumemi is Yumimi from YumimiMix (I also feel like she was influenced by Marianne from Apple Paradise), Kana is Sarada from Loop Salad, Chiyuri is Eriko from Apple Paradise (her personality is similar too - though the sailor costume was from a one-off decorative illustration, her default outfit is a pretty average uniform), the list goes on. He's far from the only point of reference, of course - take Yuki and Mai, who are basically just Aki and Mai from the first Persona game, or Mimi-chan, who's basically just Mimi-chan (and Kuma-chan, there are actually two of them in that manga, I'll have you know!) from Misutenaide Daizy. There's really a lot of stuff that he's copied, and in true doujin spirit, he wears his influences on his sleeve. But Takemoto Izumi's art is probably the most notable reference because it's where ZUN's art style comes from originally. That kind of simplified, round and cute girl shape is very Takemoto-like. He's also been quite a strong influence on ZUN's costuming in the earlier games, it's quite obvious if you cross-compare. That A-line, knee-length, maybe longer, old work-style dress can be clearly seen in YumimiMix, Daina Airan and other such manga, because it's basically how Takemoto draws school uniforms, and a lot of his works are set in schools. The classic triangular necktie also appears all over his works - unless the girls have ribbons, which ZUN also quite likes to give his girls. Well, that's regarding the first six games anyway, when he hadn't started introducing a lot of japanese elements yet.
I'd say that there is another noticeable influence on early (up to about 12) Touhou character designs, especially the more western-style ones, as you'd imagine. It's oldschool lolita fashion, it's totally oldschool lolita fashion. If you look at street snaps from up to about 2006, you can see it pretty clearly. The silhouette, the overall outfit composition, the accessories, the shoes and the socks, the pattern placement and direction, it's all there, it's all that. It's the bloomers too, of course. I don't think ZUN was literally going through G&LB for inspiration (unlike a certain other famous doujin game dev appears to have been doing), but the overall feel is still there. But really, bishoujo designs and lolita fashion are closer than you'd think, and while I can't say they directly influence each other, there certainly is an element of exchange. So, really, I believe ZUN has just been taking the more lolita-like elements of bishoujo design to suit his aesthetic goals, or something like that.

>>18051
>I've also heard in passing that Shin Megami Tensei influenced the seires? Beyond some surface level stuff about both being about mythological creatures I don't see it.
It's mostly the pc98 games. ZUN used to borrow a lot of visual bits (like the Pandemonium stage background, or... all of HRtP, actually) and melodies from early Megaten entries.

Hopefully this might help someone with writing if they want to capture a specific atmosphere or image. It's everything I could remember off the top of my head and that relates to my favourite parts of Touhou. There is way more to be said on the topic of ZUN's visual inspirations, because that man is out there getting inspired, and has been at it since '95.
Picrel: it's freakin' Kana, but ZUN coloured her apron wrong, lol.

Also, kind of unrelated, but Yumeko's theme is totally Malice Mizer's Ju te veux. I noticed that recently when going through their discography, and it's actually listed as an influence on Touhou wiki, so others see it too. That's pretty cool. Gackt-era Malice Mizer is awesome. Would that aesthetic fit Makai? It's certainly going in a similar direction!

By the way, doesn't Kikuri kind of look like...

>>18052
Oh, nice, I knew a lot of the broad strokes there but to have the specific borrowings named and pointed out like that is interesting. Rare information! A lot of these titles don't have English scans out, either...

"Street snaps from 2006" is intriguing. Any that you might be able to post as illustrative examples? :3

>>18061
>I knew a lot of the broad strokes there but to have the specific borrowings named and pointed out like that is interesting.
You can read ZUN's PC98 omakes for even more specifics. For example, in th3's omake, he basically wrote up an entire list of references.

>Any that you might be able to post as illustrative examples?
Well, the pic related, for example. It's from Gothic&Lolita Bible's third issue, from around 2001 to 2002. You can kind of see it... It's mostly the socks and the silhouette here. Really, I probably shouldn't have said just "street snaps", because you can also look at magazine catalogue photos, personal blog photos, convention photos and basically anything lolita-related from the 90s or early 00s. Some of it is more Touhou, some of it is less. I'd say early Touhou fashion is leaning towards the "sweet" lolita substyle, even if the colours don't necessarily match. Though basically all of the early windows games have a bit of "eastern" influence, which makes the fashion distinct.
Actually, come to think of it, the "oldschool" lolita look morphing into a more polished and clean aesthetic kind of coincided with ZUN gradually starting to lose his lolita influence. I don't think it's directly correlated, though. It's just that japanese fashion kind of changed, lolita became its own separate thing, which reflected on bishoujo art, I guess? Well, I'm just spouting impressions at this point.

To continue >>18062
It's just one person, but the outfit is a good example of what I meant. The photo is from FRUiTS magazine (may 1998 issue). It's not a lolita magazine though, it's just street fashion which sometimes happens to be lolita

Oh, wow, these are cute. I see what you mean, I very strongly see what you mean. That last one looks right out of Mystic Square.

So, by "became its own separate thing", there was less of a differentiation before? I guess I also see what you mean... some of these remind me of older visual novel character designs as well.

!!! ACHTUNG !!!

The pictures suggest that some of the above cosplayers could possibly be male. Please take extreme caution.

>>18065
What if I'm a male? ... Or you? ... We could goon all day.

I did have a chuckle at the black skirt with the two reflective stripes. Somehow that, of all things, got to become the Amazon femboy starter-pack skirt.

>>18065
>The pictures suggest that some of the above cosplayers could possibly be male. Please take extreme caution.
Oh, I'll tell you more, the pictures also suggest that some of them could possibly be female! Please take extreme caution.

>>18064
>That last one looks right out of Mystic Square.
A-line red dress, white collar, white apron - it's approaching Yumeko. I wanted to point that out, but thought it would be too obvious... By the way, those long-edged bloomers extending a bit further from under the skirt sometimes appear on post-PC98 characters, like Zun008.jpg/The blonde miko (from a future era), Youmu and Shou.
>So, by "became its own separate thing", there was less of a differentiation before?
It's not even really that there was less differentiation, it's just that the movement or even the fashion itself wasn't really concretely codified yet, especially in the 90s - which is natural for a developing subculture. Basically, it was more "wearing lolita" than "being lolita". You can observe a lot of overlap with standard goth, visual-kei, doll hobbies, cosplay and other such things.
>some of these remind me of older visual novel character designs as well.
Oh yeah, as I've basically said, that kind of girly simulacrum-european look was popular for bishoujo design in the early to mid 00's. The one attached is from 2004. Check her outtttttt.

>>18066
>I did have a chuckle at the black skirt with the two reflective stripes. Somehow that, of all things, got to become the Amazon femboy starter-pack skirt.
It's a different kind of skirt. The one in the G&LB street snap is way longer and wider and either isn't pleated or has a rather wide inverse pleat at the very top. Those sleazy little polyester things you're thinking of are usually fully box-pleated, alluding to a school uniform.

Anyway, I hope I'm not derailing everything too much.
Come to think of it, knowing all of that is probably more useful to visual artists than writers. Unless the way you think and write is more impressionistic, that is, and you're very impressed by silly outfits.

>>18067
She's like an endangered species. Even Alice would probably retire her to someplace in like the bathroom or something...

>Those sleazy little polyester things you're thinking of are usually fully box-pleated, alluding to a school uniform.
The one I've got is knife-pleated, actually, but I see what you mean ^^;

On a less western-style note.
This girl is from ZUN's Portrait of Exotic Girls, the illustration section on his old website, as everyone probably knows. The most common translation of its title, 白山修験, is "Training on Mt. Haku", but it's not entirely accurate. It's really more like "[Practicing] Shugendo on Mt. Haku". Which makes a fair bit of sense, actually. The titular Mt. Haku is a notable and well-known shugendo site and pilgrimage destination, after all. There is a little visual detail strengthening the connection, too. Take a closer look at her gohei, note the metal hoops. It's a khakkara, isn't it? A gohei-khakkara hybrid, even. The founder of shugendo, En no Gyoja, is commonly portrayed holding a khakkara, which is why it's probably an intentional allusion. Weirdly enough, ZUN doesn't mention it in the accompanying comment. Maybe he thought it was too obvious.
There is a delightfully evocative quality to only having a single illustration of this girl, it's fun to imagine what could have been. What if she was featured in a game? She would have totally been the En no Gyoja girl, or at least the generalized shugendo girl. Would her name be Otsuno? It's En no Gyoja's given name, but also kind of sounds like a modern girl's name, especially if you spell it as 乙乃 or something. And where would shinto slot in? She does look like a (ZUN-style) shinto shrine maiden, after all, and her gohei-khakkara really makes you think. Is she a buddhist cosplaying a shintoist, or the other way around? Is her religion/upbringing/job just like that? Either way, she's probably one hell of a character.

All of this has probably been pointed out before, but I haven't seen anything on the topic. I know a blog post about shugendo allusions in Touhou (https://archive-of-the-sealed-gods.neocities.org/other-worlds/shugendotouhou), but Zun006.jpg is barely mentioned in both the post and the linked discussion thread archive. Weirdly enough, https://nrr08.com/ doesn't say anything on it, though that blog doesn't really aim to be a comprehensive catalogue of references and allusions.

>>18074
Interesting site you've linked there, although maybe the author is a little more credulous regarding the solidity of spiritual beliefs and influences than a sceptic like myself...
But it seems like there's a good amount of useful information nonetheless! Certainly there's material that can be taken into account, or topics and names mentioned that can be springboards for further reading.

>>18080
It really is interesting to read and is a good collection of ideas to build on, but I don't entirely agree with the author's approach in Archive of the Sealed Gods. I'd say it's most prominent in the "Why are they girls?" post. (https://archive-of-the-sealed-gods.neocities.org/the-esoteric-in-touhou/part3/animegirls) It's, like, I get it, it just treats their appearance as diegetic, but... They're anime girls because ZUN is a bishoujo-loving otaku. That's just the way it is to me. They're bishoujos, it's a bishoujo work.
Of course, neither approach is "correct", there's no such thing, but it seems... short-sighted? Especially when looking at references, allusions, influences and things like that.

I'll throw this out there too.
We've all probably seen that maid with braids and glasses that looks a lot like Sakuya - her name is Nudge, and she's a robot-maid from a manga called Sarai. ZUN's Sarai borrowings in Touhou are kind of superficial, being just visual elements and a few character names (Patchouli, for one, is one of the robot-maids too), but Seihou seems to have been much more strongly influenced by it. https://touhou-gakusei.hatenablog.com/entry/2021/04/18/150918 outlines the references and parallels, but really, it's pretty obvious just by looking at VIVIT. I think you can get a lot out of Sarai if you're writing Seihou fanfiction, of at least incorporating Seihou elements. https://archive.org/details/sarai_202209 You can read the manga here, but it's raw.

Here's something related to the tengu paper. I've always felt that tengu should have a bit of a "gobliny" scent to them, which distinguishes them from humans when you get up close and really give them a good whiff. I think it should basically be as contrastive as, say, the difference in natural scents between two humans with different diets, or maybe between humans with and without a significant amount of apocrine sweat glands. That sort of thing: not necessarily apparent just from walking past one, but noticeable when you spend some time in the presence of one and allow the awareness of it to enter your mind.

Anyways, given that rural tengu lore from the Edo period onwards depicts them as tree-dwelling spirits, I feel like tree-related scents might be a plausible source of inspiration to draw from. Like maybe Hatate really honestly does smell a little bit like moss. Or Megumu... Megumu I think might smell a bit like pine resin up close. Like a naturally austere and defensive kind of scent. Momiji, perhaps, might smell a bit like sweet maple sap? I think that would be pretty cute. And I think it would also be pretty cute, in a gap moé kind of way, if Aya's "gobliny" scent was a little bit youthful and boyish. Like maybe not a specific tree scent, but the generalised scent that clings to a kid who's been clambering up and down trees like a monkey. That kind of scent.

Anyways, what do you think?

P. S. How could I have forgotten? Maybe there could be tengu with such a high-class personal scent as, say, that of truffles... Maybe it's a trait of the Himekaidou, even, with notes of it detectible mixed in with Hatate's damp moss smell. Much to consider.

>>18351
Going on that line of thought, great-tengu could broadly carry a scent of something like kaya, which is both valuable wood in general and carries significance in (some?) Shingon practises. If we're talking more mushroom-y scents and going with a conceit of class-ness with crows, someone like Hatate might smell a bit of matsutake, perhaps? Or maybe hinoki?

I'm not sure about wolf tengu. They are also Japanese goblins, but I think of them as also a bit 'other' at the same time, more like a species that somehow got absorbed into the cultural fold of more conventional tree-goblins. A cousin species? Something like that. The point is that I'm not sure they don't just smell of sweat and vaguely lupine sorts of musk. If there's any tree-scent, it's maybe through cultural convention more than a natural tendency.

More importantly, what do kappa smell like?

>>18356

I'm thinking a combination of recycled water and industry. Kinda like when you go to an outdoor water park.

>>18358
The only water parks I've been to carried a nose-singing stench of chlorine...

I suppose they could have a natural scent trending towards, well, algae or some sort of river vegetation. I'd just hope they don't smell like a poorly-treated garden pond or fish tank. I've unfortunately smelled kept tortoises that were pretty rank.

>>18358
it should not have been you dot jaypeg

>>18351
>>18356
Actually, on the same line of thought about wolfs, their actual relations to other goblins aside, I suppose it could make sense if they generally smelled of the same thing, like maple, as a sort of cultural imposition. What if you could immediately identify an entire out-group just by smell alone? That seems like a fairly nose-goblin sort of thinking, isn't it?

And even if it isn't strictly an imposition, it could perhaps be a sort of remnant of stricter times of class enforcement, maybe even a convention of 'class solidarity' amongst wolfs, depending on how one wants to interpret the tengu and their stratification.

On the topic of tengu having a 'gobliny' smell to humans, I'm thinking of a very specific mammal smell that monkeys and sick cats have. It's a warm, weirdly sharp smell that if you catch it immediately tells you that the cat is ill. I think humans with fever have a similar smell.

>>18361
Would it be like a deliberate product that they used? Is that where the maple sap harvest goes, in Gensokyo?

>>18365
Could be. Could be a scent produced from something like maple sap, leaves, or bark. Or it could be that maple — or whatever wood besides — is used in a deliberate way in the making of different everyday products that just sort of rubs off naturally. Or wolfs just eat a lot of maple-flavoured things and end up smelling like it. Who can say?

>>18366
Won't be a few more months until autumn... I should go on a tree-sniffing tour then. Pines and maples and whatnot.

>>18374
If you come across any Japanese goblins, give them a sniff for good measure, too. Report back on that.

On a slightly tangential matter, I wonder what humie scent is like to non-humans. Do they find it offensive? Intoxicating? Attractive? At the very least, distinctive? Can they tell us apart by smell, or is it relatively constant? Is there a fairly consistent value ascribed, or is there wide variance?

I think I've seen matter of the sort pop up once or twice in THP stories, but it seems like something not often paid much heed.

Any good recent academic papers out there on miko? I read a few some years ago that I unfortunately never saved. Not having academic database access anymore sucks...